'Special Report' All-Star Panel on California COVID vaccine mandates

This is a rush transcript from "Special Report," October 1, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated. 

MIKE EMANUEL, GUEST HOST: Let's bring in our panel, Jason Riley, Wall Street Journal Columnist and Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Harold Ford, Jr., former Tennessee congressman and CEO of Empowerment & Inclusion Capital, and Jonah Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Dispatch. Gentlemen, welcome. 

JONAH GOLDBERG, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DISPATCH: Good to be here. 

EMANUEL: Let's play a clip of the various sides of the argument on the Democratic side, take a listen. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

PSAKI: There's a group who have been out on television and out very publicly. 

JAYAPAL: The bipartisan bill is good, I'm going to vote for it, but I'm not going to vote for it yet. 

PSAKI: There are also a group that have conveyed that they want the infrastructure vote, otherwise, they're not going to support the reconciliation package. 

REP. SCOTT PETERS (D-CA): We don't have an agreement of 3.5 or 2.1, or 1.5. Let's just remember, we're at zero until we pass something. 

PSAKI: So, what we're trying to do is, gather all the views, gather all the voices. 

MANCHIN: We're working as hard as we can. No one is giving up. 

PSAKI: Figure out what everyone's for and try to get both pieces of legislation passed. 

REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D-TX): He basically said two things, one -- sorry, it's not going to be 3.5, maybe two, instead of 3.5. So, he said that. 

And then, the other thing, he basically said we need to pass both of them. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

EMANUEL: So, that is Congressman Cuellar, with a readout of the president's face to face visit with the House Democratic Caucus. 

Herald, as a former Democratic Congressman, do these face-to-face meetings with the president from your own party work? 

HAROLD FORD JR., FOX NEWS CHANNEL CONTRIBUTOR: They often do. Thanks for having me on. 

I thought, the outcome as it's been reported by our own reporting team, and what we had heard from members of Congress in the room, the White House has to be optimistic about this. This is a rocky road to get here. 

But I would remind all of us, this is how most major legislation is negotiated or completed, which is happening to see all of this front and center. 

I think Joe Manchin's word yesterday that 1.5 trillion was his number. And then, obviously, revealing that he and Senator Schumer had a deal. I think the fact that there was not an eruption in the House amongst some progressives around that suggests that there is an openness, there's a willingness to negotiate. 

And whenever your president and your own party comes before you and says this is about us, it's about our country, it's about things moving forward. It has an impact. 

You heard that from the progressive chair, progressive caucus chairs and co-chairs rather, who all said, look, we know that we're going to get both of these bills at one time, and we're willing to negotiate and compromise. I thought it was a positive. 

EMANUEL: Among the considerations, how involved do you make the president if it doesn't work, then is it his loss? Take a listen to some of the frustration about the president's involvement. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): I think the president should be involved. I think very few of us have seen the president in the nine months he's been president. And I think he should come to a caucus. 

PSAKI: We're clearly at the late stages of the process here. This is exactly the moment where people put their bottom lines down. They put their best ideas forward. And there's heavy negotiating, and that's exactly what's happening. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

EMANUEL: So, we thought there might be votes last night in the House had slipped through today. Jason, your thoughts at this hour? 

JASON RILEY, COLUMNIST, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, I think Harold's right. This is part of the process. This is normal, the back and forth that we're seeing. But I think the White House problem from the beginning has been that its ambition to exceed its mandate. 

Joe Biden, his problem is that he's trying to pass Bernie Sanders' agenda. And the country elected Joe Biden, not Bernie Sanders. And that fundamentally, is his problem. If the country wanted Bernie Sanders' agenda, they would have elected him. 

Instead, they gave us a 50-50 Senate. They increased the number of Republicans in the House of Representatives, and they wanted some pushback. 

I think Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, they're doing their party a favor in checking these ambitions. This is what the country voted for. They didn't vote for Bernie Sanders' agenda. 

EMANUEL: Jonah, as the hours go by, do the various camps get further dug in or does it perhaps lead to some negotiation? 

GOLDBERG: I think there'll be more negotiation. I think they'll probably come up with a number that is too high for me, but you know, and too low for progressives, but they'll get something across the finish line, I would guess, no one really knows. 

I want to sort of dissent a little bit from my colleagues here. I agree that this is the process as we've come to know it in the last few years, or even decade or so. But this is not a normal process. 

The way you're supposed to pass legislation, go back to "Schoolhouse Rock", isn't supposed to go to committees, committees are supposed to debate, they're supposed to look at facts and hear from witnesses and talk about real problems with real needs and real solutions and weigh them and then trade -- horse trade at that level.     Instead, what we have is leaders in the House and in the Senate, often operating in bad faith the way Chuck Schumer was, hiding that Joe Manchin that actually made a number known well long ago and doing this is sort of delivering a fait accompli like Moses with tablets to the caucus and say, this is what you have to vote for. 

That's not legislating. That's not what democracy is supposed to look like. That's not how our system is designed. But that's what we've gotten accustomed to and I think it's sort of tragic. 

And more broadly, I think that this has been just a terrible leadership by the Democrats. I think Jason makes a great point here is that they've allowed Democratic expectations to get way out ahead of reality, both in terms of the votes that they have, and the numbers that they're talking about.

When Bernie Sanders says that he's compromised, because he originally wanted six trillion. So, now he only wants 3.5. and that's supposed to make him reasonable, that's insane. 

EMANUEL: So, Senator Joe Manchin has been pretty matter of fact, saying, if you want this progressive agenda, you need to elect more progressives, and he represents a ruby red state. What about that point, Harold? 

FORD JR.: Look, I don't disagree with -- first of all, Joe Manchin is right. And everything that I said, I think it's consistent with a lot of things that have been said by even Jonah. 

Jonah, our dissent is not at all. We have moved away from even passing a budget and appropriating money towards a budget. I served in Congress for 10 years, we never passed a budget on time. That was 25 years ago.

So, we have completely gotten away from the process that my dad when he served in Congress some 40 years ago what was indeed the case. So, I hope we can get back to that. 

But there is no doubt Jason is right, if the country had wanted Bernie Sanders' budget, they would have -- non-Democrats (PH) would have nominated Bernie Sanders, not the country. 

Remember this, Democrats nominated Joe Biden, it's been Democrats even who have rejected particularly black Democrats (INAUDIBLE) strained from one moment who rejected to defund the police movement. You've had certain voices in the party, and certain voices in the country come forward wanting wild spending and wild policy departures in areas which we shouldn't have. But Democrats are speaking. 

I heard Joe Biden tonight, he said to Democrats, we're going to get something done, but it's not going to be that number. We have to stay within our bounds and have to -- have to pass something that America will accept. 

EMANUEL: So, the question is, do they hold to a purity test in the progressive side and question of timing, will there be votes this weekend? Jason? 

RILEY: Well, you know, no one can predict the future here. I don't know why someone like Joe Manchin would hold out this long and then cave at the last minute, but you never know what might happen. 

But I think he's right on the substance. We've already spent trillions of dollars. Inflation is a problem that will be saddled on the Democrats if they continue with this, and this will do nothing to help real wages, do nothing to help rising prices. So, I hope he sticks to his guns, but who knows? 

EMANUEL: All right, gentlemen, we have to leave it there. We'll get back to you a little later in the show. 

(BREAK) 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're tired of protecting people who do not want to protect themselves. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I lose my job, then are we going to have a few rough months? Probably. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

JEFF ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR: The president's vaccination requirements will apply to about 100 million workers. That's two-thirds of all workers across the country. 

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM, (D) CALIFORNIA: Once the FDA approves the vaccination in different cohorts starting with 12 and above, grades seven to 12, we will begin to apply that requirement. 

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, (D) NEW YORK CITY: Mandates work. They make us safer. I would urge every mayor in America, do it now. Do it now or you will regret it later. We need these mandates to keep us safe. 

SEN. RON JOHNSON, (R-WI): We know that if you are vaccinated you can get infected, you can still transmit. Why are we segregating, why are we dividing our nations with these freedom stomping mandates? That makes no sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

EMANUEL: And we are back with our panel, Jason Riley, Harold Ford Jr., and Jonah Goldberg. Jonah, do you want to lead us off on the vaccine mandates? 

JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE DISPATCH": Sure. Look, I think some of them are defensible and fine policy, particularly if they're imposed at the local level. I think Biden's private employer mandate is bad idea, badly constructed. But what's interesting to me about all of this is how it is actually creating more problems in the places where these things are popular. It's causing worker shortages and no shows in a lot of the blue states, blue cities because there are unintended consequences for it because it's a complicated and controversial thing to do, and not just for Trump voters. 

EMANUEL: The California mandate today with Gavin Newsom saying that he is going to require all students, public school and private school, to receive the vaccination once the feds approve it seemed to be something that may be an interesting time before the higher courts. Your thoughts on that, Jonah? 

GOLDBERG: Look, I think a lot of these things are going to get tested in the courts, and we're going to find out that the government has more authority, particularly at the state level, to do a lot of these things than a lot of people on the right want them to. But at the same time, it's going to have a lot of political blowback at the local level from a lot of people who don't like to be bossed and pushed around. 

EMANUEL: Harold, your thoughts on the vaccine mandates at this point? 

HAROLD FORD JR., FORMER TENNESSEE REPRESENTATIVE: I'm torn a little bit like some, but I'm more in favor of people, of private sector, and even at the local level, government level, particularly at the school level, these mandates happening. I have a seven-year-old and a six-year-old who are not vaccinated yet because they are not eligible. I hope it comes soon and I am going to look at the data and more likely get them vaccinated. But to send them to school, I have to have eight or nine vaccines already for them. And if I choose not to, they can't go to school. 

So we already have a regimen like this, a platform like this. And I think that some of have allowed this issue to get too politicized. And I think when people really step back and understand what we are trying to get accomplished here and take the politics out, and just look at the science and the medical data behind it, I think they feel far more comfortable getting themselves vaccinated and their kids when that opportunity presents itself. 

EMANUEL: OK, gentlemen, let's move onto the crisis at the border. We have got all kinds of report of more people making their way for our southern border. Take a listen to this clip. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

BEAU NETTLETON, VAL VERDE, TEXAS, COUNTY COMMISSIONER: We have people crossing this border, and we have heard numbers of this group up to 20,000, and we have had thousands before this. And we don't even know some countries that they are coming from, not including all of the diseases that are coming with COVID and everything else. 

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have been implementing Title 42 as it relates to any migrants who have been coming across the border, no matter what country they are coming from. There's no longer people under the bridge in Del Rio. 

CHAD WOLF, FORMER ACTING HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Border Patrol is now in their eighth month of a crisis that they don't have any end in sight, and you are coming in to contact with thousands of migrants over which we know about 20 to 25 percent are sick as they come across that border. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

EMANUEL: Jonah, start us off with the latest from the border. 

GOLDBERG: Yes, the thing I find most shocking is the Department of Homeland Security under Mayorkas issued this new memo yesterday that says starting in November they are not going to prioritize deporting people who are here illegally. And I understand that there is a policy and ideological and political argument about doing all that, but the reason why we have this crisis at the border right now is because of the messaging that came out of the Biden campaign and the Biden White House that sent the false signal that the border was open. And then they go, before they get control of it, they implement -- they announce this new policy, which would sound to me, if I were thinking about illegally entering the United States, to say, basically, if I can make it past the border, I'm home free. 

EMANUEL: OK, Harold, your thoughts on the border? 

FORD: I think Jonah is largely right. Look, I think the secretary we have now, Mr. Mayorkas, is probably a nice guy, probably a smart guy. But he is not meant for a crisis. And they probably need to think about, number one, getting a policy, and then number two, someone who can implement that policy. 

We can't get a pathway to citizenship for people until we get the border straightened out. I'm a believer that Democrats should negotiate and build a wall. Republicans should negotiate and invest in our hemisphere, a hemisphere that is ours that we have not invested in, and let's see if going forward we can help stabilize this and get things better. 

EMANUEL: We're up against the clock. Let's get to Winners and Losers. Jonah? 

GOLDBERG: My winner is the acting president of the United States, Joe Manchin, who had just a terrific week as the most powerful person in Washington. 

My loser is Carlos Watson and the people at Ozy Media, a website that was poised to get $40 million from Goldman Sachs and instead closed down this afternoon because it turned out it was the digital equivalent of a Ponzi scheme. 

EMANUEL: All right, Harold, your thoughts? 

FORD: Two winners. One Jimmy Carter, happy birthday. He's a winner. And two, those who love hip hop and football, we've got a great halftime show coming up at the Super Bowl with Jay-Z -- I'm sorry, with Snoop, Jay-Z might show, and Dr. Dre. 

My loser is anyone who can't watch Sunday night football and watch Tom Brady go back to England. Go Bucs and go blue. 

EMANUEL: We're sorry we had some technical difficulty with Jason. We will get him next time. 

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