The LCS replaced the Perry-class frigates, like this one, the USS Vandegrift. Now the Navy is looking at more traditional frigate designs once more.

UPDATED w/ Sen. McCain’s “optimism,” Cdr. Clark’s analysis WASHINGTON: At 1:10 pm today, the Navy issued its official wishlist for its future frigate and set a 45-day deadline for shipbuilders to respond. As acting Navy Secretary Sean Stackley had promised, today’s Request For Information (RFI) opens the door wide to both US and foreign designs. It doesn’t lock the Navy into buying an upgraded variant of the current Littoral Combat Ships, but it doesn’t rule that out, either.

Overall, the performance requirements in the RFI suggest a very different vessel than the original LCS, one capable not only of auxiliary duties but of escorting aircraft carriers and supply convoys in conjunction with Aegis destroyers. A few parameters in particular stand out:

Courtesy Wikimedia Commons

The frigate Bergamini, the first Italian variant of Fincantieri’s FREMM class, a potential contender for the US Navy frigate.

  • Reliability: The future frigate should be fully functional (“operational availability”) at least 72 percent of the time. Both the single-hulled Freedom and trimaran Independence LCS have suffered embarrassing breakdowns, beyond the normal teething troubles of a new class.
  • Survivability: The frigate’s propulsion, weapons, and other “critical systems” should be sufficiently well-protected (“shock hardening”) for the ship to take a hit and keep fighting, at least with its defensive anti-aircraft systems. The original concept for LCS was to retreat for repairs once hit, so critical systems on LCS are not shock-hardened and were tested less rigorously than the Navy norm, according to the Pentagon’s independent Director of Operational Test & Evaluation.
  • Crew Size: The frigate may have up to 200 crew. By contrast, reducing crew size — and therefore personnel costs — was a major driver of the original LCS design. The small crew raised concerns about having insufficient manpower for routine maintenance, let alone damage control in battle. Even after increasing the crew, LCS still deploys with about 70 sailors.
  • Speed: The frigate must reach and sustain speeds of at least 28 knots (32 mph) . That’s fast enough to keep up with a carrier battle group, but it’s slow compared to the LCS, which can sprint at over 40 knots. That top speed required enormous, expensive, and complex engines relative to the size of the ship, as well as exotically streamlined hulls, driving the whole design, but the Navy never found a solid tactical reason for going that fast.

In short, the Navy wants the frigate to do certain things better than the LCS — and the things the LCS does well, the Navy doesn’t care much about.

Navy photo

LCS-2, USS Independence, followed by LCS-1, USS Freedom, showing the two different designs.

Then there’s the loaded question of weapons. The Navy had already committed to installing a long-range Over The Horizon (OTH) anti-ship missile on both the future frigates and, through retrofits, to the existing LCS. It had ruled out the major modifications to the ship required to install Vertical Launch Systems — essentially, missile silos built into the hull — although both LCS manufacturers said they could add VLS to their designs if asked. The new Request For Information asks for a minimum of eight OTH missiles, but then it raises an intriguing possibility of heavier armament that would require a VLS.

  • First, the RFI says “the Navy is particularly interested” in defensive weapons, specifically naming the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) and the SM-2 Standard Missile. While the ESSM can be launched from rails mounted on deck, the SM-2 is almost always fired from a Vertical Launch System. (The Navy briefly used rail launchers for SM-2s, but they were all retired in favor of VLS).
  • Then, the Navy indicates further interest in “strike length variants to maximize weapons flexibility” — i.e. launch systems capable of handling offensive weapons as well as defensive ones — “if able to be cost effectively integrated.” While very cautious and cost-constrained, this language suggests a strong interest in the dual-purpose offensive/defensive Vertical Launch System.

Another intriguing detail is the instruction that all designs must reserve 26 tons of weight and 600 kilowatts of electrical power “for future Directed Energy and Active EA.” EA means electronic attack, i.e. jamming enemy radios and radars, a vital military specialty in which the US has lost ground compared to Russia and China. “Directed energy” means high-powered microwaves and lasers. The Navy has been keenly interested in defensive lasers, putting one on the USS Ponce in the Persian Gulf to shoot down drones — but that’s only a 30-kilowatt weapon: the future frigate could fire a far more powerful laser.

US Navy photo

The Navy’s Laser Weapons System (LaWS) aboard the USS Ponce in the Persian Gulf

It’s important to remember that the Navy is still exploring the art of the possible here, and is not yet building a ship. The Request For Information (RFI) is just that, asking companies to provide their existing ship designs, estimated costs to modify them to Navy requirements, and rough costs and schedules to build the first ship in 2020 and two more a year thereafter.

This is not the official beginning of a competition — that would be the Request For Proposals, RFP — nor a binding commitment on the Navy’s part. But with those caveats, the Request For Information gives a fascinating window into what the Navy wants.

John McCain

UPDATED LCS arch-critic John McCain, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, announced Wednesday that he was “cautiously optimistic” about the Navy’s direction. “I am cautiously optimistic regarding the request for information on a new Frigate program that the Navy released yesterday,” McCain said in a statement. “This new Frigate must be more capable than the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) program, with minor modifications. For example, the new Frigate’s ability to perform local area air defense for convoys of ships would provide a necessary and clear capability improvement over the LCS program.”

Meanwhile, retired Navy Commander Bryan Clark, a former top aide to the Chief of Naval Operations, gave us his analysis of the requirements — putting particular emphasis on places where the Navy seems willing to accept less powerful, more affordable frigate:

“The RFI implies the Navy is still concerned about the cost of the new ship and perhaps wants to use the FFG(X) as something other than a traditional frigate,” Clark wrote in an email. “This RFI incorporates several optional requirements that would reduce the FFG(X)’s capability and cost. For example:

Bryan Clark

“The FFG(X) is not required to do air defense for another ship. (It) would conduct ASW (anti-submarine warfare) and ASUW (anti-surface warfare) and have improved survivability against air threats. The RFI leaves open the degree to which the FFG(X) would be able to do air defense for another ship, asking respondents to propose how they would provide for air defense, and what launchers, such as VLS, they would use to host ESSM and SM-2 interceptors. ESSM would provide the bare minimum capability needed to defend another ship, but only in very constrained geometries where the FFG(X) is very close to the defended ship and between the defended ship and an incoming missile. In other situations, an SM-2 would probably be required.”

The Navy is leaving its options open here, Clark said, because it’s leery of installing heavy-duty air defense would increase cost and degrade performance, potentially to the point it knocks LCS-derived designs out of the running. “While Congress is pushing foreign designs such as the Fincantieri FREMM or Navantia F-105 (which already have VLS installed), the Navy likely wants variants of the current LCS to be able to compete for FFG(X),” he said. “To include VLS, the Freedom-class LCS would likely need a hull extension; the Austal LCS may be heavier with VLS and become slower and less efficient.”

Similarly, Clark notes, the RFI only requires passive, defensive electronic warfare systems, not active jamming capability, and it puts anti-submarine warfare at a lower priority (“Tier 2”) than either defensive systems or offensive anti-ship weapons. “While the RFI says the Navy wants a ship capable of doing (both) ASUW and ASW,” he said, “this could result in an option for FFG(X) that is less expensive and focused on ASUW.”

Overall, Clark said, these requirements suggest less a traditional frigate than a kind of picket ship, a spotter transmitting targeting data to more powerful vessels: “Instead of being a full-up multi-mission frigate, the RFI suggests the FFG(X)’s job is to support Distributed Maritime Operations and Distributed Lethality by hosting unmanned systems and acting as a remote active and passive sensor to support shooters over the horizon” — such as the more powerful Aegis destroyers.

Comments

  • Yazzinra

    Smart and I hope it works. An upgunned LCS was never going to be anything but an upgunned LCS. Better to build a new frigate from the ground up. It might cost more doing it that way, but (hopefully) we get more too.

    • Sons of Liberty

      It shouldnt cost more than thebover oriced LCS if we use an existing proven design. The navy has to say away from any desire fir a brand new hull form and the cost of its development.

      Its time to embrace our allies and expoilt their R&D sunk costs for our benefit.

      • Yazzinra

        That would be an even better solution. 100% in agreement with you.

      • Tom Van Luven

        You are never going to get a capable frigate for less than $700 million, and that is much more than the cost of an LCS.

        • PolicyWonk

          Not at all: the real cost of LCS is around $568M, not counting any mission package, which adds considerably to that price.

          And LCS, in the words of former CNO Adm. Jonathan Greenert, was “never designed to venture into the littorals to engage in combat” (the interview was published on this site), which makes both classes less than useful in a fight, and its designation deliberately misleading. This doesn’t count the comments from the USN’s Inspector General, who declared in his report that neither class of LCS is likely to survive the missions commanders were likely to assign them…”.

          Hence, LCS is no bargain. And LCS sailors are all too well aware that other navy’s ships in the same size class (and smaller) are vastly better armed/protected than they are or will ever be.

          • Tom Van Luven

            Firstly, the LCS is definitely no bargain. In fact, the 2017 budget request for two ships came out to around $1,136.1 million, or $568 million and change for both ships, including aircraft and mission packages. (I’m not sure what specific mission packages are being discussed; there is a significant discrepancy between packages.).

            https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL33741.pdf

            That said, so what do you have that is a better deal? The US Navy still needs a ship to do rear area patrol, minesweeping, and peacetime presence patrols. Are you suggesting that a $1 billion frigate with twice the crew size is more efficient for those functions? Come on! Which ship is the US Navy going to buy for those wartime functions that is a better deal than the LCS, which is already in production and for which the US Navy is already on the hook for the development costs of?

          • PolicyWonk

            While its true that the navy needs a lightweight ship that can perform mine sweeping, peacetime presence patrols, etc., they don’t need anything nearly as complex, elaborate, or expensive as LCS. The high-speed aspect of it is tremendously expensive, and has rendered both classes incredibly expensive and unreliable.

            Note that the only mission package deployed is the SuW variant, which still largely renders LCS all but useless against a peer naval asset of similar size.

            The USN would be better off to build a basic utility ship constructed to the level-2 standard, with standard mounts, etc., to make it easy to up-arm them if necessary.

            The USN could also a patrol frigate, and I’d go with one based on the Legend class NSC, which has a hot production line, parity with the USCG, room for growth, range, arctic capability, and legs.

          • Tom Van Luven

            I understand what you’re saying from the standpoint of looking backwards. The problem is that the ASW module is largely mature technology, and the weight reduction problem has been solved. So, once Congress provides the funding that module is ready to go. The minesweeping module has problems mostly with the drones and, given the inescapable logic of using drones for minesweeping, those expenditures will continue.

            I guess what you’re saying is that you think that starting several new programs to build two to three new specialized ship classes would be faster and cheaper than just building out the original LCS line.

            I’m doubtful

  • NavySubNuke

    Thank God. The best part of Obama/Mabus being gone is now we can actually restore combat capability to the fleet rather than pumping up fleet size by including ships with no actual combat capability such as the LCS and the hospital ship in the “battle fleet”.
    Another year of repair the neglect the fleet and shipyards have undergone since sequestration and we’ll be ready to actually start expanding the Navy. Hopefully it isn’t too late.

    • Tom Van Luven

      Sequestration is largely a function of Congress’, both Democratic and Republican, but largely Republican, inability to pass a budget. And the only reason sequestration continues to bite is because none of the military “hawks” have the guts to actually fund the extra spending.

      Regarding your disdain for support ships, an all-combat navy makes no sense whatsoever. A fleet without oilers, freighters, supply ships, minesweepers and, in the case of China, the ability to enforce a blockade, is a hollow fleet.

      • NavySubNuke

        I’m not sure if you are deliberately misrepresenting my statement or just didn’t get it but I have no problem with support ships. My problem is when you change the rules on how to count the “battle fleet” so the navy looks larger and stronger than it is. Especially when a big part of the reason you were able to raise the size of the battle fleet is by adding ships with no real combat capability like LCS.
        Oilers, minesweepers, supply ships, etc. are all great and necessary – but so are ships that have the ability to engage and defeat the enemy. We need to buy all of those classes of ships – and aircraft carriers too.
        What we don’t need is overpriced and unarmed little crappy ships that one day might be useful if we dump enough time, energy and money into them. Just another few years and a few hundred more million and the mines weeping module might be ready right?

        • Tom Van Luven

          Well, if you’re just talking about counting “battle fleet,” then I probably don’t disagree. I also don’t disagree that the total program cost of the LCS is way higher than it should have been.

          Where I do disagree with you is the lack of need for these ships and your implication that they are overpriced from a marginal cost standpoint. First, there is little doubt that the navy needs ships to sweep for mines, patrol for submarines in rear areas, and provide convoy escort during wartime. The LCS performs all of these duties more cheaply than any other US naval ship – by far. And by performing those (wartime) duties, it frees up the real combatants for frontline duty.

          Secondly, regarding cost, the cheapest frigate worthy of the name costs roughly $700 million USD. Add on some additional development costs, and you get to a $800 mil – $1 billion ship real quick. By comparison, when you consider that the LCS’s development costs are already paid for, you are looking at a ship that costs one-half that of a frigate. And with a crew of roughly 100, the operating expenses are much less. During peacetime, you wear the bejeezus out of the LCS’s; during wartime they take on rear-area auxiliary roles.

          I understand your argument with regards to counting these as “warships.” However, just because they don’t fit that category doesn’t mean that, for the moment, the LCS isn’t needed in the fleet.

          • NavySubNuke

            “First, there is little doubt that the navy needs ships to sweep for mines, patrol for submarines in rear areas, and provide convoy escort during wartime. The LCS performs all of these duties more cheaply than any other US naval ship – by far. ”
            Except you are wrong. The LCS doesn’t sweep for mines and the LCS can’t patrol for submarines. And how in the world is it supposed to convoy escort when it doesn’t carry any weapons to take on someone who would attack the convoy?
            With enough additional funding and a few hundred more million dollars maybe (and that is a pretty big maybe given how incompetent they are) PMS-420 will come up with an ASW module that will actually fit on the LCS and make it able to find submarines. But to date that has not happened and the LCS by itself without that ASW module has no way of finding submarines. Ditto for its mine sweeping ability without the MCM module — right now each LCS could sweep just 1 mine.
            I would be completely happy to spend 1 billion on a single useful frigate than to continue wasting 1 billion on two basically unarmed lightweight ships that have no ability to survive in combat or to perform any other useful function.
            And let’s not forget the Navy’s cowardly decision to keep two independent ship designs. Sure the LCS has a smaller crew but its logistics tail is twice the size it should be since none of the parts are interchangeable between the classes. That offsets far more of the savings you gain by a smaller crew than most people realize.

          • Tom Van Luven

            Regarding the decision to accept two designs in order to win congressional votes, no argument. Likewise, the decision not to use the LCS as a coast guard cutter. However, regarding your argument on logistical tails, if the USN does complete its production run, it will have 26 ships of each class. That may not be ideal, but how do you support your argument that a 26 vs. 52 ship logistical tail equals the manning costs of roughly 5,200 sailors (i.e. 52 ships times 100 additional sailors under the frigate program.)

            Regarding your contention that the LCS’s current minesweeping package is useless, the Navy is going to pour money into the drone minesweeping package until it works. For minesweeping, whether it be undersea knifefishes or unmanned boats, drones make eminent sense. So that is irrelevant. Regarding the LCS’s anti-submarine (ASW) package, I have no pretensions to technical expertise. I did look for substantiation for your assertion that the current ASW package is useless?

          • NavySubNuke

            Neither the ASW or MCM package has even IOC’d yet which is why I say they are useless. There are 0 modules deployed today and there are 0 modules available for deployment should we need them.
            The ASW package is still going through a complete redesign after the first one they designed was too heavy (https://news.usni.org/2015/07/30/lcs-anti-sub-warfare-package-too-heavy-3-contracts-issued-for-weight-reduction-study)
            God only knows when they will actually finish!

          • Tom Van Luven

            Firstly, thank you for the link. The US Navy is expecting the ASW package to be ready by 2018-2019.

            Let me ask you this. If the LCS’s minesweeping and ASW modules were working today, would you support the program? Or would you oppose it regardless, thus making their state of completion irrelevant?

        • LazyFlyBall

          Yes, you are correct. In another few years and a few hundred more million dollars manned ships will no longer have to do minesweeping. That’s a bargain if it saves even one ship with sailors on it, much less a Burke or larger ship. We must head in that direction. Is the LCS perfect as a drone mothership, no, but it should carry enough cheaply enough to get the job done.

          Also, if you are going to penetrate an anti-access environment to deploy USVs and UUVs and rotary UAVs to do mine-hunting, do you want to do that with something that goes 28kts and has 200 sailors or 50kts and 70ish sailors? How long can you punch a hole in their anti-access net?

          • NavySubNuke

            I’m just trying to figure out what the point of mine sweeping in an area we can’t operate due to anti-access is? How would we stop them from just replacing the mines after our unmanned systems have been destroyed or run out of power?
            Also, do you think a supersonic cruise missile cares if the ship it is trying to kill is going 28 or 50 or even 75 knots? Lets be real here — the 22 knot speed advantage of an LCS is meaningless when the enemy is firing sea-skimming supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles.
            I’m all for saving sailors lives those. Which is why I want them on ships that can actually meet the enemy and emerge victorious rather than on something that can’t come close to matching anything even close to it’s own weight class. The LCS would do just fine against a swarm of suicide speed boats but against any other warship deployed by any potential adversary they wouldn’t survive long enough to even get into range.

          • LazyFlyBall

            If you take down the targeting for that missile, via electronic attack or destroy a mobile radar that can be replaced, you only have a finite amount of time to operate in that area before they patch the sensor hole. The difference in distance those ships can cover over a 12-24hr period while not being watched is significant. That’s what I was getting at.

          • NavySubNuke

            Yes but if you only have a limited time to operate in the area wouldn’t you want a ship that actually has weapons to operate there rather than an a ship almost completely devoid of any armament?

          • LazyFlyBall

            No, I want a ship that is not in that area when the radar comes back online. Not being there > having weapons to defend yourself because you’re still stuck there doing 28kts trying to get away.

    • Change60

      The best part of Obama/Mabus, et al being gone?

      It’s that they are gone.

    • PolicyWonk

      I think it has more to do with Mabus being gone than Obama, as Mabus was a real LCS fan-boy: and we all knew that before he was sworn in (or even had his confirmation hearings).

      Sequestration was recently being boasted in parts of the MSM as being a GOP-generated problem (though, Obama did sign the legislation). McConnell and Boehner both recommended their party members to vote for it because they “got everything they wanted” out of the negotiations.

      Regardless, I’d rather see the USN building level-2 sea-frames, with standard mountings, etc., for weapons, that would make them easy to upgrade should we determine its necessary (and arm/equip them relatively modestly in the short term). At least then we’d have useful ships that are upgradable, and easy to make lethal and war-fighting capable: virtues that neither LCS variant shares.

      • Tom Van Luven

        With regard to the LCS, maybe. However, with regards to the US Navy’s anemic strength, that is largely a function of the Bush and even Clinton years. Furthermore, I haven’t seen any movement from Trump so far with regards to beefing up the fleet.

        So what’s the difference?

        • PolicyWonk

          You are correct that during the Bush years (GWB presumably), they were far more interested in land and air than they were in the USN. With Clinton, he initially followed the draw-down plans left behind by former Sec Def Colin Powell, but as deficiencies started to be made clear they upped the budget (whether by enough to make a difference is a topic of debate).

          Obama (and Mabus) did up the construction of naval assets, though considering the state of the armed forces was at its lowest state of readiness since Vietnam when he took office (JCS report on Force Readiness to the POTUS, Spring 2009), let alone the nation undergoing the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression, how much progress they were going to make remedying the situation was dubious given the circumstances.

          Cheers.

  • the_artist_formerly_known_as_m

    It’s become evident that the only reason that the Navy continues to build LCS is to preserve the industrial base – as opposed to providing actual military utility.

    • ycplum

      A cynic may say it is to put money in the pockets of corporations and social welfare for the constituents of politicians. lol

      I personally believe we need a true frigate class ship. The gap between a LCS or even a LCS-frigate and an Arleigh Burke Destroyer is just to huge.

      • BorgWorshipper

        Cynical is irrelevant. The US cannot just build a new ship at a whim, much less quickly and in large numbers.

        At this pace things are now, China will have 600 ships, (and with longer range weapons), and the US will 250 on a good day. Many US ships are not combat ready and under staffed, ill trained, etc. Like hitting a cargo ship.

        There are shortages of skilled workers, ( and even fewer ones that pass DoD clearance), very long lead materials, steel production, electronics, engines, etc. Plus the US ship yards needs updating to modern, and more efficient techniques, and need to at full production all the time. So they need a good backlog to make it all work.

        • Rocco

          Agreed we will always play catch-up

    • Ineluctable

      I think they are counting on having a ship that can be upgraded to a dangerous weapon. 600 kw is a lot of power and they may be counting on laser or rail gun breakthroughs or working with info we do not know about yet. Add an air defense capability like that and now you have a ship that can go off on its own and recon, jam, and increase our threat range significantly and provide superior support.

      • J_kies

        Reserving power and cube/mass is fine as design margin. Expecting lasers or railguns to provide military capability in the next couple of decades (railguns) is just drug induced euphoria.

        • Ineluctable

          Hardly drug induced euphoria. The military does not always share what they are doing. Even small advances can change things dramatically. Multiple lasers mean higher focused wattage and more lethal beams. We are not far from taking full fledged jet fighters out of the air. Rail guns are far better already than they are indicating.

          • J_kies

            Oooh Ahhh its the ‘I am sure the military knows what its doing argument’ and ‘its a deep seekret’ arguments.
            Are you personally an expert (engineer or scientist) building a weapon to a military specification to negated a real threat? I happen to do related stuff for my income and the laser efforts are the single largest fraud being sold to the Services by unscrupulous contractors today. The USAF researched Soviet laser threats to our A/C in the 1970s and stopped because aircraft are inherently very hard against lasers. We (the US) invested upwards of 10B $ from 1984 through 2012 on hopes for laser weapons with identically zero delivered weapons. As for recent ‘demonstrations’; the SEAL or Marine snipers on the Ponce could have replicated all the ‘laser’ weapon demonstrations in far less time during marksmanship practice with their rifles.
            The railgun is far more credible but the problems of building guided ammunition that routinely survives the railgun launch environment (effectively drawing a lightning-bolt across the projectile) is likely a decade+ of directed research. OSD directed that the projectiles focus on the near term objective of putting terminally guided projectiles into the Navy powder guns to gain a couple of decades of use prior to a practical railgun delivery.

          • Ineluctable

            Gosh oh gee I bet no one has such swell insights into the military as you do. I am satisfied that with computer advancements and design the military does know what its doing and how to plan. We now have leadership that is willing to let it do what it needs to do.

          • J_kies

            Computer advancements do exactly nada to address the two environmental issues of propagation through turbulent atmosphere from the beam director to the targeted object and the harsh issue of pristine contamination control for your optics where any salt, water or dust can immediately cause the optics to eat itself under high power lasing.

            The next fact that the enemy can make their inbound missile or airplane extremely hardened against laser energy with after-market coatings no more difficult than a coat of paint should trouble you.

            Are you advocating that the US waste scarce funding and engineering talent on things we know that either nature or the enemy will defeat at the time they must work?

          • Ineluctable

            Now I know you don’t know what you are talking about.

          • J_kies

            Really? So T&E support and analysis of the Airborne Laser target engagements and analysis of the Alpha Laser / Sealite Beam Director target engagements means ‘I don’t know what I am talking about’. Perhaps sir you could inform the community as to your personal expertise presuming its slightly better than a cranial-rectal insertion.

          • bearcala

            > railgun is far more credible but…

            1) they didn’t show yet if it can sustain multiple full-energy (20-32 MJ) shots at the desired 10rpm rate. And I’d bet they won’t – because of the problems with rail erosion. Have you seen the smoke and flame coming out of the bore? Those are burning metal particles from the rails and sliding aluminum armature, created by electric arc between the rails and armature which melts and burns their surface.

            2) BAE’s HVP for railgun will have 28lbs flight mass with 15lbs of payload. It is promised to fly over 100nm (185 km) from the full-energy shot (muzzle velocity V0 ~2.5 km/s). Assuming the diameter of the HVP to be ~2.5″ (or slightly more), one can easily calculate its ballistic trajectory, the final velocity Ve, and the resulting kinetic energy Ek of 15-lbs payload at the target:

            V0 = 2500 m/s, Ve = 840 m/s, Ek = 2.4 MJ (~1.2lbs of TNT)
            V0 = 2000 m/s, Ve = 700 m/s, Ek = 1.7 MJ (~0.9lbs of TNT)
            V0 = 1500 m/s, Ve = 570 m/s, Ek = 1.1 MJ (~0.55kbs of TNT)

            The whole ‘blast’ effect at the target would be roughly equal to a mortar round. So what the ‘game changing’ fuss is all about?

  • ElmCityAle

    “Both the single-hulled Freedom and trimaran Independence LCS have suffered embarrassing breakdowns, beyond the normal teething troubles of a new class.” – beyond this anecdotal claim, are there data to back it up that compare LCS with other new ship classes over the past several decades?

  • Sons of Liberty

    Thank god sanity has returned to the USN.

  • NukeItFromOrbit

    In an age of precision guided weapons it may sound antiquated but I think a powerful gun armament on this new frigate would be a good choice if we intend to have these fight in littoral waters. A 5″ and one or two 76mm or 57mm guns could prove very useful against small boats and other threats.

    I also hope we don’t try to make this do everything out destroyers and cruisers do. No need for SM-2ER, SM-3, or SM-6 capability. The full-sized “strike length” VLS probably isn’t worth the extra weight. Future variants of the LRASM or Kongsberg NSM/JSM may have a land-attack capability as well.

  • observer

    Ok, so we overpaid for self-deployable minesweepers and patrol craft. I still think if their drones ever mature we’ll be glad we did. The Navy could have sold this very differently and saved everyone a lot of headache.

    Imagine if from day one they never used the words littoral or combat and just called them experimental self-deploying modular minesweeping patrol craft. (and committed to developing a new frigate by 2020)

    I think a lot of the hate would have been diffused. They’re not that terrible for what we’re going to end up using them for, it’s all in the missed expectations, totally self-inflicted wound.

    • Ineluctable

      There will always be haters. Its just how powerful they are that counts. I have no love for the littorals, they are too vulnerable to, too many things. However, your point about maturing the tech far enough they can have a place. Jamming will always be important in this era, as an example.

  • Fre Okin The Contrarian

    The LCS is good for mine sweeping operations and also to play the cat and mouse game with China due to her speed and shallow draft. No need destroyers which risk running aground and put US to shame in her ‘sail within 12 NM’ FON. It won’t be very useful in actual war near the coast but good for power projection, so maybe buy more. Other than that, perhaps it is better suited for the Straits of Hormuz armed with laser to zap up the Iranian speed boats.

  • Tom Van Luven

    The idea of converting the LCS into a frigate was always a fools errand. However, the choice isn’t necessarily between and LCS and a frigate: A frigate is needed primarily to beef up carrier group defenses. However, with a crew of 200+ it’s a waste of money for peacetime duties, blockade enforcement, and minesweeping.

    The obvious solution is to leave the LCS as a general purpose utility and light combat ship, and to add a capable frigate as a separate program. And that frigate should be based on an existing, proven foreign design, probably the FREMM.

  • Distiller

    Range requirement is WAY too low. 3000nm @ 16kts is a joke. That is probably quite a bit less than 2500nm @ 20kts. Are they serious? Such a thing could not even reach Cadiz from Norfolk, let alone Guam from Hawaii without refueling. In fact it would barely make it from San Diego to Honolulu on its own.

  • Rocco

    Notice on the survivability required was only just be able to take a hit!!!! From what direction??? Big deal!!! The Perrys can take multiple hits from the air, surface & below the water line & still stay afloat!!!

  • @USS_Fallujah

    The RFI also gives some clue as to what the USN intends to do with the 30-something LCS they’re still going to have when the first FFG is ordered. The de-emphasis on ASW might mean they intend to use the Independence class as the primary SSC ASW asset (one place the 40kt sprint capability does actually have some usefulness) because of the great aviation capability of that class. The Freedom will likely then be primarily as ASuWa platform intended for anti-piracy and swarm boat defense in moderately contested sea space (think Hormuz, Malacca, Horn of Africa, backed by a DDG and/or in conjunction with a ARG). In a large scale conflict with a peer adversary they are still little more than axillaries, but useful ones.
    One question still outstanding is what happens to the MCM role, I’ve heard it could be added to some Freedom Class as an augment to the ASuWa role, but I’ve also heard the MCM package is never going to be capable of doing the job it’s assigned and might never find a home on an LCS ever. Don’t be surprised if NavSea quietly around 2020 adds a requirement for a new mine hunter.

  • BorgWorshipper

    So, in other words, the USN kills the FF/LCS and creates a ship class that no one is building nor can USN afford, since it will over 1 billion per ship. and will will a decade to see water.

    Might as well just order another 75 DDG51 Flight 2. (since Flight 3 is not affordable)

    • Rocco

      Agreed again

    • @USS_Fallujah

      This is what I’ve been talking up for 2 years, instead of a foreign design or upgunned LCS or NSC, go the other way (like the USN is now doing with the LPD to LX(R) and you’ll end up with a far more capable combatant at the same-ish cost and leverage a hot production line and existing logistics train.
      Each DDG-51 Flight IIA w/ Technology Insert is coming to the fleet at ~$1.6B, reduced Radar, Cooling, Power, Magazine & AAW suite will save tons of money without the delay and overruns you’ll get from a clean sheet design.
      I also think you comment about the flight III being unaffordable is bunk, but that’s a discussion for another day.

  • Ineluctable

    Regarding the littorals. I am concerned about air defense for the ship as well. A very expensive ship can be lost to a well placed missile. And your usefulness is limited if you have to stick close to a fleet that provides air protection. The Navy may be counting on a big leap in laser weapons which would provide air defense and offensive capability. Now you have a very effective ship for recon, and projecting threat range.

  • leroy

    NCS NCS NSC! There is no time to mess around with an entirely new FFG program. And we don’t need/want to build a foreign-design frigate. Take the Navy-configured up-armed Ingalls NCS and start buying them now. A new design can follow that in about 10 years.

  • Henrik Heuser

    Why do the entire whislist sound like a Norwegian multi role frigate… they was designed as ASW frigate, but then someone decided to be funny…