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SoCal – I have been served with a very nasty letter/threat because my son told some fellow classmates that Santa does not exist.

(self.legaladvice)

submitted by crazy_moms_throwaway

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[–]kylejack 654 points655 points  (7 children)

If Santa wants me to stop telling children that he isn't real, then he can send me a cease & desist himself.

[–]Gewehr98 135 points136 points  (0 children)

I want an update on Christmas Morning when you find a service of process letter under the tree

[–]AnnaLemma 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I am so totally stealing this line the next time this sort of crap comes up in conversation.

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    [–]UsuallySunnyQuality Contributor 273 points274 points  (9 children)

    I really want to see this letter. Can you redact the personal info and take photos?

    [–]TYLERvsBEER 164 points165 points  (3 children)

    I feel like half of the posts on this sub are just people embellishing situations and seeing what they're legal outcome would be if it were real. This seems like one, although I would love to actually see this letter with info redacted.

    [–]erinem2003 15 points16 points  (0 children)

    I think a portion of them are more than embellishments and are complete works of fiction instead. It's disappointing to get interested in a title only to find that the story is BS.

    [–]greenlife173 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Yes, my thoughts exactly.

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      [–]u-void 28 points29 points  (1 child)

      She wasn't planning on having to type it up

      [–]UsuallySunnyQuality Contributor 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      Sadly, I think I have to agree after lo these many hours.

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        [–][deleted] 367 points368 points  (24 children)

        I want to see this letter (names, addresses, etc., redacted, of course).

        [–]jennybean42 109 points110 points  (10 children)

        Seriously, OP.

        [–]smarterthanyoda 451 points452 points  (9 children)

        In the spirit of this sub, I have created a shitty MS Paint rendering of the letter.

        Voila!

        [–]DigitalMariner 58 points59 points  (3 children)

        /r/Paint4LegalAdvice

        [–]supes1 28 points29 points  (2 children)

        Nice work, but I think it needs a little more fancy letterhead.

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          [–]solkim 59 points60 points  (8 children)

          Would the bar association care about this?

          [–]PetraB 151 points152 points  (3 children)

          IANAL but I would like to think the bar association would care about a lawyer abusing their position to bully people into doing what they want under threat of a law suit.

          [–]dcux 53 points54 points  (1 child)

          Does threat of lawsuit with completely unfounded monetary demands constitute extortion? I know the answer is probably no, but that's what this feels like. "Give us money or we'll hurt you financially."

          [–]SycoJack 21 points22 points  (0 children)

          Cause that's what it is.

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            [–]Masterchiefg7 7 points8 points  (0 children)

            Probably, yes

            [–]SeattleBattles 16 points17 points  (1 child)

            I would think so. I'm not a California attorney but every set of RPCs I've seen have provisions about acting competently and with candor.

            I mean, it's not going to get them disbarred, but it could get them a stern talking to.

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                [–]zotc 183 points184 points  (18 children)

                Assuming this is legitimate. Wouldn't the firm get in trouble with the Bar for a bullshit demand letter?

                [–]JackEsq 186 points187 points  (3 children)

                My thought would be to call one of the partners of the firm listed on the letterhead. They would probably be pissed that an attorney at the firm sent out this letter.

                [–]supes1 35 points36 points  (13 children)

                There's nothing in this description I can identify that violates the California Rules of Professional Conduct. Letters like this trying to obtain a settlement in a civil dispute are commonplace, as ridiculous as it is here.

                [–]to11mtm 31 points32 points  (12 children)

                Eh, What about Rule 3-200? I mean, as you've said civil dispute asshattery isn't uncommon, but this sounds like it's certainly walking the line...

                http://rules.calbar.ca.gov/Rules/RulesofProfessionalConduct/CurrentRules/Rule3200.aspx

                [–]supes1 21 points22 points  (7 children)

                I wish that applied. It is only applicable when an attorney proceeds to "bring an action, conduct a defense, assert a position in litigation, or take an appeal." None of that occurred here. It was just a harassing letter.

                Now, if this attorney tries to actually file suit, she should absolutely file a complaint with the state bar.

                [–]steelbeamsdankmemes 28 points29 points  (3 children)

                I was hoping asshattery was actually in the rules.

                [–]justthistwicenomore 135 points136 points  (31 children)

                Also, I can't speak with certainty about California law, but in many if not most places, "negligent" infliction of emotional distress requires the distress cause some real physical damage/harm.

                Depending on whether you feel like potentially escalating, you may want to consider reaching out to this law firm. I have heard of instances where a lawyer uses their firm's letterhead to intimidate someone, but does it without authorization. If this is a big, elite law firm, it's entirely possible this is the case here (especially if the relation at the firm isn't, like, the head of the firm).

                Of course, then you might really get this person in actual trouble, which would just be adding to the overall dickishness of the universe, something I'd generally advise against. Still, if you get another communication or the person engages you directly, it might be good to remind them that you can call them out, too.

                [–]nimble2 35 points36 points  (2 children)

                Ahh, interesting possibility. Maybe some new young attorney at the law firm thought sending this letter on company letterhead would be a good idea, but they didn't get approval for doing that from their boss, etcetera.

                [–]Esquire99 29 points30 points  (0 children)

                My firm would slaughter me if I sent something like that out. Even my last firm, which was much more relaxed, would have done so.

                [–]justthistwicenomore 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                Exactly. One instance I remember was someone who was trying to show off to their friends, and so sent a letter to a landlord threatening legal action for some tenant, and figured it couldn't hurt to name check the firm. Didn't work out well for them at all.

                [–]supes1 101 points102 points  (13 children)

                I agree that the attorney who wrote the letter is most likely acting rogue, without the approval of his firm. I know of no "elite law firms" that would want their name attached to something like this, even as a favor to a family member. The potential bad PR if it gets out is too serious.

                I don't think reaching out to the firm is worthwhile though unless she receives another letter. But if she does, I think she should absolutely reach out to the firm, with a polite and simple letter asking for confirmation whether this attorney is acting on behalf of the firm or independently. Any attorney who writes a letter like this deserves to be called out.

                If she wants to be nice, she could write this letter to the attorney directly first, basically as a "warning shot" which will hopefully stop him.

                [–]hertzsae 105 points106 points  (4 children)

                This attorney is clearly trying to bully this single parent who doesn't have a lot of money. It has distressed her (which is clearly the intent of the letter) enough to post here asking for help. I think that warrants your suggested letter to the firm now. If another letter comes, then I'd seek out the media asking why a law firm is trying to limit a first grader's first amendment rights.

                Who knows how many other people this joker has tried to bully with his super elite attorney status. Letters like this are why so many lawyer jokes exist. Most managing partners would want to know if someone at their firm was giving them a bad name. This letter is a favor to the firm.

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                  [–]UsuallySunnyQuality Contributor 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                  "negligent" infliction of emotional distress requires the distress cause some real physical damage/harm.

                  It's more than that. NIED is only recognized in very limited circumstances in CA, such as when a loved one witnesses a car accident that kills the victim. There is no generalized duty to avoid negligently inflicting emotional distress on others.

                  [–]Atheist101 9 points10 points  (1 child)

                  Rofl this is fucking amazing because I just finished reading 7 cases in California about their definition of Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress and its exact meaning for my LRW class (research ftw :p). The long and short of it is that since Thing vs La Chusa, in 1989 by the California Supreme Court, its been defined by 3 elements:

                  • The Plantiff is closely related to the injury victim

                  • Is present at the scene of injury-producing event at the time it occurs and is aware that it is causing injury to the victim

                  • As a result suffers serious emotional distress - a reaction beyond that which would be anticipated in a disinterested witness and which is not an abnormal response to the circumstances.

                  The 2nd element in my readings of the cases say you HAVE to be at the incident and know that the person you know/related to is being injured because of the circumstances.

                  Based on that, the letter sent to OP is COMPLETELY baseless and idiotic because no lawyer who knows what the fuck he is talking about would even think about Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress.

                  Also on a side note, I never actually thought I would be using my LRW class research for a real life problem. Im so glad I paid attention to my readings today :P

                  [–]hypnofed 15 points16 points  (2 children)

                  Of course, then you might really get this person in actual trouble, which would just be adding to the overall dickishness of the universe, something I'd generally advise against.

                  I disagree about it being dickish. It's taking action against a bully which brings the inevitable result of that bully suffering consequences for their actions. This isn't a case where one person calls another person a dipshit. It's an explicit threat made by a person in a position of power.

                  If you want to reduce the dickishness in the universe, show people that being dicks brings consequences.

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                    [–]cld8 80 points81 points  (2 children)

                    Some public shaming of this law firm is in order. They are attempting to extort money out of you by intimidating you. Post the letter on Facebook (or here on Reddit), and I bet they will back down pretty fast after they realize what a fool they have made of themselves.

                    [–]ftc08 20 points21 points  (0 children)

                    Forward the letter straight on to the bar association.

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                      [–]LandShark805 39 points40 points  (0 children)

                      Reply with "Please provide Santa's direct contact information, and I will hire him directly."

                      [–]to11mtm 36 points37 points  (0 children)

                      I'd Talk to the Principal, personally. Who knows whether these parents have tried similar crap before or not. If they have, great; more proof that they're nuts. If not, you've got a paper trail started. If nothing else, it will hopefully get the ball rolling so that, if you're lucky, your son doesn't have to interact with these children anymore.

                      • Was the letter signed by anyone specifically at the law firm?
                      • The items they are threatening to sue you for don't appear to have legal standing in CA. you wouldn't sue due to 'emotional damage', you'd sue due to 'emotional distress'. Now, you could so FOR 'emotional damages', but given the next items listed, that doesn't sound like the intent in the letter.

                      Bonus Points: When I tried to google 'flagrant disregard parental rights' (left the 'to' off for hopefully more results) to see whether that was an actual civil charge, the top links indicated to me we may be dealing with an Anti-Vaxer and/or HyperChristian type. (lol, prisionplanet and the like.)

                      Even still, If a suit is filed, you do have to show up to avoid a default judgement, even if I am 100% sure that any judge would laugh this right out of the courtroom.

                      [–]xHeero 177 points178 points  (17 children)

                      Ignore the letter, it's bullshit. If you actually get sued or get a subpoena that is when you do something.

                      [–]Maxwyfe 69 points70 points  (8 children)

                      Perhaps you could complain to the school that these kids and their parents are bullying your child because of his alternative belief system?

                      [–]legumey 14 points15 points  (2 children)

                      You mean, as in not believing in Santa Claus? For most people past 10 years old that is not an alternative belief system.

                      [–]AnnaLemma 16 points17 points  (1 child)

                      Read the posts on /r/Parenting around Xmas-time - Santa is serious business for a startling number of people =/

                      [–]money_run_things 4 points5 points  (4 children)

                      they are Asantas (like atheists) or maybe they are agnostic to the existence of santa.

                      [–]jaimystery 8 points9 points  (3 children)

                      They could also be Jewish - I know several Jewish folk who grew up without Christmas trees or Santa and they seem to be doing okay.

                      [–]bluelouie 69 points70 points  (5 children)

                      SANTA ISNT REAL!?!

                      [–]childtuesday 37 points38 points  (0 children)

                      Apparently, we all have a case against OP now.

                      [–]eric987235 13 points14 points  (2 children)

                      Quick, hire a lawyer and sue OP!

                      [–]Gewehr98 13 points14 points  (1 child)

                      i want in on this class action

                      [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                      Sleigh chaser!!

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                        [–]I_Murder_Pineapples 84 points85 points  (3 children)

                        Your son is a minor. A very minor minor. A minor cannot be liable for a tort. Period.

                        Really. It's that simple. Write them a letter saying "My son is six years old and cannot be liable to you for anything." If they persist, ask their lawyer types to cite you a case where a six year old has been held liable in tort. They cannot. Because there is none. Period.

                        Someone is going to say "but couldn't they sue you for negligent supervision." Nope. Not that either. While in school, the minor of that age is under the school's supervision. And there is no duty on the part of the school to prevent a child from talking child talk to other children.

                        Honestly, this is so stupid it sounds fake. But considering Kim Davis is real, I just don't know what sounds fake anymore.

                        [–][deleted] 60 points61 points  (60 children)

                        I would throw the letter out and if they approach you about it in person, tell them to pound sand. They're allowed to send all the demand letters they'd like. If they actually file a lawsuit, that's when you should be worried. They most likely won't and are just trying to scare you.

                        [–]agreenbhm 27 points28 points  (5 children)

                        I would throw the letter out

                        Screw that, I'd frame it.

                        [–]tekgnosis 7 points8 points  (3 children)

                        IANAP but I feel as though this should take pride of place on an 18th or 21st birthday photo wall.

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                          [–]doublenut 46 points47 points  (7 children)

                          Isn't trying to scare someone with baseless lawsuits the sort of thing an attorney is not supposed to do? Is there a basis for a bar complaint?

                          [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (5 children)

                          Yes. This isn't a lawsuit, however.

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                            [–]crazy_moms_throwaway[S] 48 points49 points  (41 children)

                            But to what end? What is the point of this? They have to know a letter like this is totally unreasonable.

                            [–]thepatmanQuality Contributor 95 points96 points  (2 children)

                            But to what end?

                            They want to scare you into admitting fault and/or settling.

                            Practically speaking, a lawsuit would be difficult, bordering on impossible. But, that may not stop them from filing it and generally dicking with you until it gets dismissed. So they hope you'll cave and give in now.

                            If you're actually sued, get an attorney and look at a countersuit.

                            [–]cnot3 26 points27 points  (1 child)

                            If you're actually sued, get an attorney and look at a countersuit.

                            Fuck, you could sell tickets to that hearing . . . I'd buy one.

                            [–]Hyndis 30 points31 points  (6 children)

                            It is completely unreasonable. But there's nothing to stop anyone from making unreasonable demands.

                            I could demand that you pay me one hundred billion dollars. I could even send you a letter demanding one hundred billion dollars from you.

                            You of course should point and laugh at the letter with its crazy demand, then throw it into the garbage.

                            If you are served notice that you have been sued you absolutely must respond to this. If you fail to respond the other guy wins by default. You can't defend yourself if you show up. That said, only an idiot would try to sue over Santa. Odds of him winning are laughable. But you still have to show up. He'll win unless you show up.

                            A civil suit is where someone has to prove their demands to the satisfaction of a judge or jury. Its one thing to make insane demands, its quite another to prove those demands are warranted. Again, you do have to show up to defend yourself if you have been actually sued. You don't want the other guy to win by default if you fail to show up.

                            You'll know if you actually get sued. A process server will serve you the papers if/when this happens.

                            [–]Bunnyhat 8 points9 points  (5 children)

                            I am in need of your address so I can counter demand 2 trillion dollars from you.

                            [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (4 children)

                            I'm worried you're demanding money unreasonably from people who are demanding money unreasonably. As such, I demand that you pay me 10 trillion dollars for my mental anguish.

                            [–]Jesin00 15 points16 points  (3 children)

                            You have taken this too far. As compensation, I demand that you give me full sovereignty over Pennsylvania.

                            [–]tannhauser_gate_vet 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                            Ok. But it's as-is. Don't come crying back to me after you watch the Phillies for the first time.

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                              [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                              They do, but there's always a chance you'll be so scared you pay it.

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                                [–]ChiliFlake 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                I would throw the letter out

                                Why wouldn't you keep it for evidence?

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                                  [–]acme280 29 points30 points  (0 children)

                                  Most of the firms I've dealt with have very strong policies about not using the firm name or letterhead for things like this. In your situation, I would be very tempted to mail a copy of the letter you received to one of the firm's partners along with a note explaining that you thought they should know that one of their attorneys was using the firm's letterhead to send absolutely ridiculous threats.

                                  [–]Spectrezero 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                                  I pray to Santa there is an update to this.

                                  Even if it's fake, I want to hear how this story ends 😬

                                  [–]ridleylaw 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                  I'm a SoCal lawyer. If OP sends me proof via pm, I will consider taking this on, pro bono. I am very oppositional.

                                  [–]FoghornLawhorn 63 points64 points  (8 children)

                                  I'm going to hate myself for saying it, but this is the kind of crap that morning news stations like to run for the bored housewives.

                                  (Personally, I'd wipe my ass with the letter and mail it back to the idiot who wrote it, but that's just me and I'd strongly recommend you not do so. Probably violates Federal law to mail poop anyway).

                                  [–]ritchie70 12 points13 points  (4 children)

                                  Pretty sure it just requires proper containment and labeling. Stool samples are sent to labs routinely, and I assume that's sometimes via the mail.

                                  [–]ANAL_ANARCHY 26 points27 points  (1 child)

                                  Fuck your shit regulations.

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                                    [–]money_run_things 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                                    yes, human feces is considered a biohazard.

                                    [–]Aduialion 11 points12 points  (3 children)

                                    Hire the shitiest santa nominee can buy. Make sure he's black, and is offensive. Let them have their Christmas

                                    [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                    If you can afford it, play along and hire a black or mexican Santa.

                                    [–]-Hegemon- 7 points8 points  (4 children)

                                    No offense meant. As a foreigner, I never cease to be surprised by the capacity that the American society has to generate legal conflict out of thin air.

                                    [–]flickkaa 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                    Do not pay anything. Report the lawyer to the legal board in your state. Their claim is vexatious and embarassing. No lawyer should be making demands such as that.

                                    [–]Ozzyo520 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                    And you guys still think these posts are legit? I've been trying to tell, we are being flooded by these. Never a single shred of proof. There is no doubt in my mind someone is doing this for their own entertainment, conveniently a throw away every time.

                                    I don't mind them though, I learn more from these absurd made up situations than most of the others. They tend to spark very intriguing conversations.

                                    [–]bauhaus83i 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                    If you get sued, hire an attorney who specializes in SLAPP lawsuits. You will win and your attorneys fees will be paid by the idiots suing you. I recommend this guy: http://www.slapplaw.com/ (no, it's not me).

                                    [–]c_c_c__combobreaker 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                                    Find out who the firm's partners are and send them a copy of that letter. Assuming the attorney is not a partner themselves, the attorney will be out of a job pretty quick. If the attorney were my associate, he'd be fired on the spot for writing something so stupid.

                                    Edit: It seems a lot of people already mentioned this.

                                    [–]LadyACW 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    I am over 40, but I can still remember the talk that my mother had with me when I found out from my peers (around age 6 or 7) that Santa wasn't real. She told me that Santa Claus was "the spirit of giving at Christmas". Then she proceeded to educate me on how much better it is to give than to receive. We then went to a local "Angel Tree" charity and picked out a recipient to help with Christmas that year. It was a positive experience because my mother used it to teach me a TRUE life lesson about helping others. Had these snotty, overindulgent cows done something similar, their kids would be better off. Instead they show their kids how to hurt another person. Such a shame.

                                    [–]NDaveT 27 points28 points  (6 children)

                                    Parenting advice would be to tell your son it's not nice to do this.

                                    Legal advice would be to laugh at these idiots.

                                    [–]Caffine1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    If they're making legal demands, you're going to want to at least get some proper legal adice from a licensed California attorney. I know you mentioned you can't really afford a lawyer, so a great place to look is http://lawhelpca.org/ Law Help California. It's set up by the California State Bar Association. It has lots of legal information for "self help" and resources that will help you find the right attorney, in some cases pro bono.

                                    I'm not an attorney yet, am not knowledgeable of California law, and this is not legal advice, but information.
                                    Pretty sure that the negligence of kids is based upon what a reasonable kid in the same position would do. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Telling other kids that there's no Santa isn't the nicest thing in the world (I know if I'd done that when I was young, I'd probably still be grounded all these years later), but this is something that happens. That request is ridiculous, and another poster mentioned contacting the Bar Association. I'm inclined to agree with that. While courts like it when people try to settle out of court, this is pretty out there.

                                    Again, not yet an attorney, not familiar with California law, and this isn't legal advice, but information.

                                    [–]tomanonimos 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    This has Orange County all over it.

                                    [–]skippygo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    What I always find hilarious about these stories about kid A telling anothing kid B Santa isn't real is that kid B's parents could easily just say that kid A was lying and kid B would 100% believe them. What young child would believe another child over their own parents? If they wouldn't then the parents have some parenting issues.

                                    [–]hannylicious 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    You should write a letter back stating:

                                    "Do it, you won't. No balls. By the way - the toothfairy isn't real either."

                                    See what happens.

                                    Kidding obviously, but lawsuits like this are so insane it's not even funny. Parents like that need to be beaten with a wooden paddle.

                                    [–]Bagellord 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                                    Honestly, I would reach out to the head of the law firm and advise them that some jackass is sending out idiotic letters with their letterhead.

                                    [–]DragonMadre 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                    OMG - What is wrong with these people? - There is no Santa. I am not an attorney but the truth is generally seen as a defense. I hope you don't worry about this and that this doesn't cause your son any distress.

                                    [–]Turtlepower7777777 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    Did they use the law firm's letterhead? If so, I can see a disbarment or firing upcoming.

                                    [–]SchiferlED 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    The kids were traumatized because their parents lied to them, not because your kid told them the truth. End of story. Don't lie to your kids.

                                    [–]crownlessking93 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    This is so embarrassing. Could you imagine being that attorney? Putting your professional reputation on the line because your sister wanted to bully another mom? Honestly, I doubt they will even go through with this suit. It would never stand in court.

                                    [–]DanGarion 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    I'm not a lawyer, although I have stayed at a Holiday Inn once or twice.

                                    My free law advice is to tell them to fuck off.

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