When They Told Me Norman Wrote a Book…

I’m mightily impressed by the literacy, enthusiasm and high quality of your comments on my previous column, on Norman Mailer.

And I appreciate the nay-sayers as well. (At least as much, I’m sure, as our president “appreciates” his critics.)

Since then, a curious thing has happened.

Much ink was spilled at the time of that notorious show. But I had no idea how much until just now. I Googled “MAILER VIDAL CAVETT SHOW.” And I won’t be hurt if you do so yourself to verify the startling results. It says: “Results: 1-10 of about 30,000 for Mailer Vidal Cavett Show.” (Just for fun I typed “The Dick Cavett Show” and was hit with the words “about 387,000.” That’s more than Nielsen said were watching my first show. Would someone please read all the entries for me? And have your report on my desk by Friday.)

If you somehow don’t have time for them all, you might enjoy checking out “Charlie Rose/Dick Cavett.” I was on Charlie’s show a few years ago, and his producers plucked out and rebroadcast the most notorious segment from the Mailer-Vidal skirmish — the “fold it five ways” section — so you can see it with your own eyes in all its rich and flaring glory. (It’s about a third of the way into Charlie Rose. Note especially the body English.) Sorry for this ego-related detour. Back to our story.

And now for a surprise. To both you and me. “You know, Norman wrote a whole book about that show,” someone said to me a few years after it aired. “It’s called . . . something about dots.” I probably nodded politely, knowing full well that, were this true, I, or someone, would have heard about it.

But here’s the spooky part. Three days ago, wandering for no particular reason to my wall of bookshelves (and books), my eye fell upon a group of four volumes about the same size. Only three of the titles were legible. Idly removing the dim one, donning glasses and holding it to the light, I experienced near syncope. I all but swooned. (Cue eerie theremin music on soundtrack.)

On the spine, in faded gold against deep brown, there it was: “Of a Small and Modest Malignancy, Wicked and Bristling with Dots.” By Norman Mailer.

In disbelief — and intrigued by the catchy title — I eased the cover open. There, in a nice handwriting, appeared:

To Dick,
My remembrance of a
couple of things that passed.
Cheers,
Norman
April ’82

In the popular cliche, my pulse quickened. It’s a small treasure of a book, 120 pages of Norman’s ruminations about — and experiences on — TV. It’s a great read and fully the latter half is about “our show.” I could pass a polygraph test that I know not when or from whence it came into my possession. I must have brought it home years ago from the office in a bag of books and, without looking at them, shelved them.

But for Mailer/Vidal devotees, it’s a bit of a heartbreaker. A page at the very back tells us: “This first edition of ‘Of a Small and Modest Malignancy, Wicked and Bristling with Dots’ is limited to three hundred numbered copies on Mohawk Superfine and a deluxe edition of 100 copies on Curtis Rag bound in leather, all of which have been signed by the author. Printed at The Castle Press for the Lord John Press.”

(I didn’t get a leather one, alas, and I have yet to find its number; but who cares? It’s mine and I love it.)

It deserves a wide audience of Mailer and Vidal fans. I wish I could lend it to you, but as you know, loaning books is a fiction. You give them. Nobody returns the damn things.

Instead I’ll make some disjointed highlight selections for you — some of what they like to call “insider stuff.”

The following bit went unreported. It took place in the green room, where guests sit and watch the show before going on. (I only learned about this afterwards from Vidal.)

In his familiar third-person manner, Norman writes of himself:

When he arrived at the studio, they rushed him to makeup. Vidal had been supposed to go on first, but hadn’t arrived. Would Mailer object to taking his place? He had hardly given his assent before he was informed that Vidal had arrived, after all. Would he now mind if Mr. Vidal went on as originally planned? Since Mailer had formed the little vice when appearing on Cavett of comporting himself as the star, he would not pretend to happiness at finding himself on the shuttle. Still, he kept his mouth shut. He did not wish to jostle his liquor.

At this moment, alone in the green room, he felt a tender and caressing hand on the back of his neck. It was Gore. Vidal had never touched him before, but now had the tender smile of a man who would claim, “It doesn’t matter, old sport, what we say about each other — it’s just pleasant to see an old friend.”

Mailer answered with an openhanded tap across the cheek. It was not a slap; neither was it a punch. Just a stiff tap.

To his amazement, Vidal gave him a stiff tap back.

Norman smiled. He leaned forward and looked pleasantly at Gore. He put his hand to the back of Gore’s neck. Then he butted him in the head.

“Are you crazy?” asked Vidal.

“Shut up,” said Mailer.

“You’re absolutely mad. You are violent,” said Vidal.

“I’ll see you on the show.”

He was, after Vidal left (and that was quickly enough), obliged to pace about. Other people came into the green room, saw him, and went away. It was obvious: he did not feel like speaking.

The show began. Cavett did his monologue, and it was a good one. Cavett had the only smile that came through the valves of video looking wicked and angelic at once.

Then follows the action described in the preceding column. But here are a few more choice exchanges I’d left out, random bits Mailer included in his book.

After Norman has complained that Gore has attacked him in the magazine article “as part of his particularly dirty little literary game,” we get:

Vidal: Well, I’ll begin to answer Norman’s charge about what a bad person I am. The attack on him. Really if you want to know, Norman, is simply what I detest in you — and I like many things in you, as you know, I’m a constant friend despite this — but your violence, and your love of murder, your celebration of rage, of hate. Your “American Dream” — what was the dream? A man murders his wife and then buggers this woman afterwards to celebrate an American man’s dream. This violence, this knocking people down, this carrying on, is a terrible thing. Now, it may make you a great artist — an interesting artist, I don’t say that, but to the extent that one is interested in the way the society is going, there is quite enough of this violence without your celebrations of it. [Vigorous applause]

Gore began to speak again, when suddenly Norman heaved up out of his chair and lurched toward him, a bit shakily. The audience gasped. Gore, an old army man too, raised one arm to deflect what looked about to be a right hook. I thought I was going to be in a real fight before the cameras, wondering just what part of Norman’s anatomy I would go after, and thinking, Do I take my jacket off? But Mailer merely snatched the offensive article from Gore’s hands and wobbled back to his seat, pleased with the shock he had delivered.

                                                  *    *    *

More from our forest of oddities that night. You will recall from last time that Mailer had at one point asked the audience, “Are you all really, truly idiots, or is it me?” And that a chorus of “YOU!”s was roared back. The laugh I then got with, “Oh, that was the easy answer,” served to deepen the Mailer scowl. This was followed by some far-from-average audience participation:

Cavett: I’m sorry, Norman, I interrupted you. You were talking to the assembled audience.

Mailer: Yes, I was going to ask the audience what I was doing that was making them cheer every time the other side connected with a pass.

Man in audience: You’re rude.

Woman in audience: You’re a snot.

Mailer: That’s fair. Someone said I’m rude and someone said I’m being a snot.

Woman in audience: You’re a pig. Why do you have to argue so negatively and insultingly to your guests?

Mailer: They’re not my guests any more than they’re your guests.

Cavett: It seems it’s your show now.

Woman in audience: Why do you have to answer them with insults and nasty statements, and they’re answering you maturely and with dignity? [Applause]

Mailer: That’s because they’re mature and full of dignity and they’d cut my throat in any alley, and I answer crudely because I’m crude and a lout and a clod, that’s why.

(No one argued with this.)

                                                  *    *    *

And as we neared the end of this warm and peculiar happening, a brief disquisition on murder:

Vidal: I made my case very carefully in the article [about Norman’s propensity for violence] but I will say, giving you a few minutes more on the program, you will prove my point … I come back to what I said. I detest this violence in you. You have actually written that “murder is never nonsexual.”

Mailer: Well, is it ever nonsexual?

Vidal: Well, I’m —

Mailer: Don’t you know, Gore?

Vidal: Not having murdered anybody lately, no, I don’t know … I’m going to give you a line that Degas said to Whistler — two celebrated painters — and Whistler was a great performer like Norman, and Degas said, “You know, Whistler, you act as if you had no talent.” You, Norman, represent yourself as if you really had no talent at all, and of course you are one of our best writers.

[Norman “exposes” the fact that he, too, saw that quote in a recent article by Edmund Wilson and “thought it was marvelous.”]

Vidal: Good. I’m glad that we both agree that the sentiment is correct.

As it must to all good things, the end was coming when Norman insisted on clarifying the incident of the murdered woman in his novel “An American Dream.” The one Gore had attacked for its ghastly violence. Note how the less-than-totally-savory moment is so expertly seasoned by the great Janet Flanner:

Mailer: … in fact, he did not simply bugger a woman, he entered her another way as well, and…

Flanner: Oh, goodness’ sake. [Laughter]

Mailer: I know you’ve lived in France for many years, but believe me, Janet, it’s possible to enter a woman another way as well.

Flanner: So I’ve heard. [Laughter]

Cavett: On that classy note …

Flanner: I don’t think it’s restricted to French information, dear. [Laughter] Practically international. [More laughter]

Mailer [subdued]: Are we quitting on that classy note?

(We had to, returning for less than a minute.)

Cavett: Well, it’s been an interesting evening around the old table. Miss Flanner, I’m glad to see you got those cookies [from a commercial] that you wanted.

Flanner: It’s the only solace. [Laughter]

Cavett: Could you all come back New Year’s Eve? [Laughter] Let us know who you think won and we’ll see you next time we’re on the air. If.

                                                  *    *    *

Of the years of shows I’ve done, this was the only one where I consciously thought, in the middle of it, I wish I could be sitting out front watching this.

Mailer’s version, in his book, of the last seconds: “The good-byes were short. Mailer turned around, and Vidal was gone.”

And mine: In the long shot, as credits rolled, you saw three of us still seated, with Norman walking off slowly. Alone. Like an old fighter who has absorbed a goodly number of body blows.

Comments are no longer being accepted.

The long essay Mr. Cavett cites can be found in Mailer’s collection “Pieces and Pontifications.”

Thank you, Mr. Cavett, for the laughter. I’ve been trying to eat breakfast cereal while reading and have almost choked several times, am still in tears. I saw this show of yours on its first run and never forgot it. However, I’d certainly forgotten the juicy details.

I’ve loved all of your work for the NY Times, but this has to be the best yet. Thanks again.

Lynn R.

I watched that show, and recall with a modest grin that Norman made me feel more human than Gore ever could. Gore always seemed to be one who practiced pomposity and Norman one who, being brilliant, tried to disguise that brilliance so as to astonish and alarm those with preconceived notions of the serious writer. Norman knew passion and his first novel, “The Naked and the Dead,” is still a classic. Anyone who might want to celebrate war by landing on aircraft carriers might want to read and contemplate not only the plot, but the underlying themes of the novel. The work he produced is obviously greater than the man, but if we read his body of work we will always have the man and the power of his prose. The contrast between Vidal and Mailer is simple:Gore tried to prove he wasn’t ordinary, and Norman tried to prove he was.Two writers of extraordinary skill occupying the same lanscape for a very long time ought to be celebrated. Goodbye Norman!

Vintage Mailer. For all the gruff and hostile performance art, he was remarkably kind and generous to us rustics. In the late ‘70s I randomly sent him a manuscript for a novel and to my surprise he sent it to his publisher. Over the years I continued to send him things and he always responded with wry and witty comments and occasionally drawings and illustrations, including a caricature of Ronald Reagan admiring President Bush and referring to him as his “best student.” After 9/11 I wrote to him at Provincetown and asked him to speak up. I received a drawing back of a Cyclops with giant genitals saying: “So, I said to Aeschylus ‘You don’t understand the nature of Greek drama.’”

(Mailer’s Cyclops at: //quigleyblog.blogspot.com/)

Wonderfully engaging writing, Dick Cavett. More!

Where have you gone, Cavetts of the world? One has had one’s fill of reality shows for 12 year olds.

It was a privilege to read your account of Mailer’s account. One of the compelling reasons your “columns” should be gathered and enshrined at The Smithsonian is your wickedly fine use of our language. On that note, I take the extreme liberty of chiding you for “…I know not when or from whence it came it came into my possession.” Yes, “from whence”, though technically a good example of redundancy, is considered acceptable common usage. You ought not to stoop to common usage. Especially in a paragraph that also contains “syncope”. Thanks for continuing to write. Evidently, you still enjoy it. So do we.

Really enjoyed that, thanks. Mailer and Vidal had to clash, because their philosophies of life were so opposed. Mailer knew that to achieve great art, you must risk embarrassment. Vidal was strongly philosophically opposed to risking embarrassment.

Well done in capturing their key meeting on tape: it’s a philosophy seminar disguised as a fight. In an earlier century, we’d have had to make do with a couple of garbled accounts in bystanders’ diaries.

What a singular pleasure these pieces are, Mr. C. I look forward to them. Perhaps, like caviar, if one had it daily, the salt might blunt the pleasure, (forgive the ineffective metaphor and its weak staying power; no coffee yet), but I, for one, would like to take that chance. Thank you for the wit, grace and civility. Your invocation of Mailer is vivid and perfect.
Best
JRB

The nerve of those people in the audience to yell at Mr. Mailer. Really- the nerve. Then again- what I wouldn’t give to have been in that audience with a bottle of vodka with the top gone missing. I might have ended up looking foolish possibly even having to resort to throwing my metaphorical racket at him, “Hey Norman yo’ mudda” but it would have been fun- as was reading this latest by Mr. Cavett.

I haven’t seen the show, but I can’t help wondering: Could the movie be half as good as the book?

Bravo. I did not see the show but your artful description makes me feel as if I did.

Hold on. Is this just one big social science experiment? These little pieces by Dick Cavett are ok, but they hardly rise to the level of praise heaped on them here. Who are all these people? Can’t anyone think for themselves?

Just because Cavett keeps pointing out (directly in some ealier pieces, more obliquely in others) that he’s a bright guy doesn’t make his writing fabulous…or must one have been a fan of his show to appreciate it?

I suggest another experiment. Close the comments section and the echo chamber it creates, and see how many more of these “Smithsonian-worthy columns” we get. My money’s on three.

Must reiterate “No. 5″ comment (Posted by Hartford Johnson) wherein it is ask, “Where have you gone, Cavetts of the world? One has had one’s fill of reality shows for 12 year olds.” Mr. Cavett, your contributions have been most gracious and to hear/read them bring back memories. Look forward to the continued intelligent wit and insights… remember your show with fondness.

Thank you Dick Cavett ! I enjoyed your show in the 1970s. I was a pretty regular watcher of it in the late seventies. Among the many good things I leaned from it was about “The New Yorker”. Your calling it a good magazine lead me to subscribe to it until today etc.

I discovered your blog after Norman Mailer’s death. Part I on Mailer was wonderful. Very much enjoyed watching the 2001 Charlie Rose interview with you. Will finish part II on Mailer, later today. I hope to read much more from you in the coming months and years.

Have a great Holiday !

I was visiting the Paley Center for Media with my family in July when one of the day’s public viewings happened to be the show Cavett so entertainingly describes. My wife and I were anxious to see it again. Our two daughters (22 and 17) were game although neither had heard of either Cavett or Vidal — and they only knew of Mailer because, many years earlier, we had named our tough and surly half-Manx cat Norman in his honor. Like us, the girls were captivated by the entire episode. We all wondered why, even with all of the cable channels available today, hypnotic viewing like that is sadly missing from the regular schedule.

I’ve loved reading about this infamous show from the inside. Now, might we have an encore? I still have distinct recollections of the show with Lily Tomlin, W.H. Auden, and the heart-throb actor Chad Everett, who played a tv doctor. It struck me then, as now, as emblematic of something seriously askew in a clash of American media cultures. I’d love to hear more about *that* show.

What a shame that such ribald and pungent intellectual discourse is nowhere to be found in today’s television world. Now our so-called giants of literature and thinking are forced to obscurity while the gallery gawps and leers at the endless parade of vapid starlets pitching their latest vehicle for baring their expensive breasts. Who has the belly fire anymore for believing in ideas so passionately that fisticuffs is an option? Bring back these literary pugilists – the world needs them.

Mailer was the literary Don rickles. One had to laugh during his public appearances, but one also always cringed. Had you been out front, you would have been embarrassed. He was full of predictable unpredictability. I’ll miss him.

Sadly, and with all due respect, a column on that show [let alone two] is simply trivial [which, I suppose, is the only way one can be trivial].

Dear Mr. Cavett,your previous column somewhat alarmed me but, thanks to one of the posters, we were provided with the opportunity to look at that interesting segment of your show in case we had missed it. I found it rather embarrassing all round;yet it was good of you to include this poster’s offering, which was actually the tape brought forth by Charlie Rose during an equally enlightening discourse about the sort of talent you have most admired in personalities who have influenced your own career. Particularly the remarks on why they were Performers and your admission to the somewhat inadvertent stalking of Greta Garbo or, why look a gift horse in the mouth. I think that you carried it off with chivalry and grace.

Finally, after viewing and hearing the famous contretemps, I had to look up an article in the NYRB, in which Gore Vidal, reviewing a book (by a feminist author),in the time frame immediately following your show, manages to get in the last word and introduces what he calls the M3 theory of men opposed to feminism. It rather made up for his somewhat excessively patrician attitude while appearing on your show that night. I now attribute that to his youth.

You will find this in The New York Review of Books
Volume 17, Number 1 · July 22, 1971
In Another Country
By Gore Vidal
Patriarchal Attitudes
by Eva Figes

The show was broadcast when I was a teenager and I remember it very well, it was quite astonishing. I don’t recall that I was on either side, liking both of the writers for their exaggerated public personas. It did make me a Janet Flanner fan.
Several decades later, I did have the pleasure of talking to Mailer several times when I lived in Provincetown and he was one of the most polite, considerate and amusing conversationalists I ever met. I thoroughly liked him. Never met Vidal although I am a fan of his memoirs. But this is my one chance to stick up for Mr. Mailer, who, when encountered in a normal, noncelebrity situation, was a nice guy, even a mensch. We will not see his
like again. I look back on it all and think, what’s the problem with the occasional head-butt?
Can’t you think of an awful lot of people on tv who deserve them?

Thanks again for sharing, Mr. Cavett. I KNEW there was a head butt in there somewhere.

Mailer must have known the audience would oblige with a resounding “you” when he took the risk and asked them if they -or he- were the idiots. He and his question were complex, but they were not. Only the great or near great can recognize greatness. He must have asked others that same question a hundred times and received the same answer. Is it lonely being one in a million? Probably not that night since 2 other greats were present, Cavett and Vidal, and they knew the correct answer to Mailer’s question.

I’m with commenter 17, Norman Mailer was a mensch.

You know why that show made such good viewing? Because the Dionysian and the Apollonian got to meet head-on, in the same room. And in the US, the two great streams of Western culture usually flow in their own separate channels, in their own separate worlds (a fine Presidential speech and a great bar fight, say, might take place on the same night in the same city, but they seldom overlap).

Vidal is the great Apollonian and Mailer the great Dionysian of that bunch of wonderful 20th century American authors. Perfect casting for a timeless confrontation. Who booked that show? Genius. Well, I’m off to re-read Vidal’s wonderful Julian, and Mailer’s awesome Why Are We In Vietnam?

Dear Dick:
You should be releasing these shows on DVD. (I enjoyed the Rock and Roll and the Comedians DVD releases. Why not a release of literary greats? or memorable shows? otherwise, I must resort to youtube. Sincerely,

Your reference to the theremin was heartening as most people have no idea what it is. Mailer would be impressed.
As an aside, and as you probably know, Theremin was also the inventor of the “bug” to listen in on unsuspecting capitalists for the KGB. The old boy’s son lives in Florida, speaks with a yankee naisal twang which is the closest sound he can make to the instrument, and more surprising, dose not own one. LPS