Mandela speaks his mind and heart

If Nelson Mandela is a politician, he is the kind of politician we rarely see on network television. When the 71-year-old deputy president of the African National Congress (ANC) appeared on The Koppel Report Thursday night, he answered every question directly and without apology. Whether those listening agreed with him or not, he spoke his mind and his heart. Following is an excerpt from the verbatim transcript of "A Town Meeting with Nelson Mandela," provided by ABC News.TED KOPPEL: Mr. Mandela, you're participating in what is a very old and honorable American tradition, the town meeting.... I think we have some people out here who have some provocative and perhaps even controversial questions to ask you, and I'd like to begin.

REV. CALVIN BUTTS (Abyssinian Baptist Church): Mr. Mandela, you've come to the United States of America, other than South Africa, probably the most racially divided country in the world. Evidence of that is right here in New York City. We are one of the most racially divided cities in the world. The blood of our children stained the sidewalks of New York _ Howard Beach, Bensonhurst, Yusuf Hawkins, Michael Griffith, our grandmothers, Eleanor Bumpurs, mothers, Yvonne Smallwood. Do you think that this country, given its racial record and current history, can assume the real credible and moral leadership in the fight against apartheid, because its hypocrisy is well known, and one wonders whether it can really do what we want it to do. And if it can, what role can we, as Africans in America, play?

MANDELA: After the rousing welcome I have received here, I do not know whether I am in a mood to think coolly. I have been deeply touched by this warm welcome. But to respond to the question, I must say that the ANC and, in fact, that the entire mass democratic movement in South Africa condemns racialism wherever it may be found. We are fighting a special kind of racialism in our own country, and we expect all people who are the victims of racialism to fight that evil. But I am here, and I am primarily concerned with what the people of the U.S.A. and its organs of government are doing to promote the struggle against apartheid in our country, and I must say to you that we have the support not only of the masses of the people, we have the support of the Congress, as well as the government. And I think that it would not be proper for me to delve into the controversial issues which are tearing the society of this country apart. I am sure that the U.S.A. has produced competent leaders of all population groups who are able to handle their own affairs very effectively.

KOPPEL: Let me follow up, if I may, on part of your answer. You say you are sure you have the support of the people, the Congress and the leadership. By the leadership, do you also mean the president of the United States? Are you satisfied that you have this support?

MANDELA: Well, I am sure of one thing, that he condemns apartheid, as I do. That is enough for us to find further common room with the president. And this is the message that I'm going to put to him when I meet him.

KOPPEL: And when you say you have support of Congress, are you satisfied that you have enough votes in Congress to keep sanctions in place?

MANDELA: That I cannot say. That lies in the future. But when I address Congress, the main thrust of my speech is that the Congress should support sanctions.

GLORIA JUTE: My name is Gloria Jute, I was born here in Harlem, I'm a lawyer, I've lived here all my life. I'm also on the board of directors of the African Educational Foundation that's raising money to train the people of Africa for industry. I am

concerned about the future economy of South Africa. I am concerned when I look at the newer countries that gained their freedom, so hard-fought, indeed did not demonstrate sound fiscal policy. Illiteracy is still quite large, and hunger. What can assure me, as a human being and a concerned African American, that the ANC will indeed have a fiscally solvent policy that will continue the use of the resources of South Africa in a meaningful way? Or should I put it more succinctly? Will your economy be based on the Marxist system, socialism or capitalism, or both?

MANDELA: I knew that was the question you wanted to ask. I am happy that you have had the courage to put it directly. We are not concerned with models. We are not concerned with leaders. We are practical men and women whose solutions are dictated by the actual conditions existing in our country. As somebody has said, we do not care whether the cat is black or white, as long as it can catch mice.

What we want, what we want to achieve, is a healthy and vibrant economy, which can ensure full employment to our people, maximum production, and the development of social justice. We want it to rectify the imbalances that exist in our economy. One of the companies, well-known companies, in the country, one company owns more than 75 percent of the shares counted in the Johannesburg stock exchange. This is illustrative of how our economy is organized, it is much of the resources of the country are monopolized by a white minority, even in the minority, by a few individuals, whereas the masses of the people, especially blacks, are left poor, ridden with disease, illiteracy, without educational facilities. We want to develop an economy which will put an end to that and will leave to other people to put a label, if they so wish.

KOOS VAN DER MERWE, South Africa Conservative Party (televised from South Africa): Hello, Nelson. I'm a South African, I'm an Afrikaaner, I want self-determination for my people in a part of South Africa. You can't have the whole South Africa for yourself. A part of it belongs to my people. Nelson, you are not going to nationalize the assets of the white people. I have worked for my banks, my mines, my businesses and my farms. You are not going to take it. Stop your violence, stop your sanction campaign, stop your nonsense. Leave the violent campaign alone and come and sit down, become a normal person, and talk, and maybe that way we can find solutions. And lastly, forget Communism, Nelson, it's gone. And I hope you will be well; I believe you were ill, I hope you will recover. And have a good journey.

MANDELA: (speaks in Afrikaans) . . .I just wanted to demonstrate that I am bilingual. All I have said to Koos van der Merwe is to say I am happy to know you. I hope that one day we shall have the opportunity to discuss the affairs of our country. That is all.

KOPPEL: Now, let me pick up, if I may, Mr. Mandela, on what Koos van der Merwe had to say. He represents, as you know, a small but significant segment of the white population in South Africa, which is pressuring (President F.

W.) de Klerk from the political side of the spectrum. To what degree do you feel any need to help President de Klerk deal with people like Koos van der Merwe?

MANDELA: Mr. de Klerk is an independent, resourceful and flexible leader. He is able on his own to deal with the right wing. The outside world will be making a grave mistake if they think they can do anything whatsoever to help Mr. de Klerk as against the right wing. In fact, for the international community to seek to do anything expressly to help Mr. de Klerk would be the best way of undermining him, because what the right wing is doing is to tell the whites in South Africa that de Klerk is a puppet of the United States and Great Britain, and that what he's doing now is precisely because he has received instructions from those two countries. And if now the Western world comes out to say they want to help de Klerk, that is what the right wing exactly wants. You will destroy him.

We, the ANC, are the only people who can help him, and we are doing our very best to help him. One of the points we are putting to him is that Mr. de Klerk, if he wants to see a future nonracial South Africa emerging, is to speed up in regard to the negotiating process. That in a year or two he should be able to extend the vote to all South Africans. He must cease thinking in terms of solutions by seeking a mandate from whites only. He must place himself in a position where he can get the support of the overwhelming majority of the people of South Africa. And if he gives every man and woman, whatever the color of his skin, the right to vote, he will be in an extremely strong position, and there's nothing that the right wing can do. But if he continues, as he is doing at the present moment, still to think of racist solutions, solutions which are seen first and foremost as protecting the rights of whites, he will go under.

KEN ADELMAN, Institute of Contemporary Studies: Welcome to America, Mr. Mandela. Those of us who share your struggle for human rights and against apartheid have been somewhat disappointed by the models of human rights that you have held up since being released from jail. You've met, over the last six months, three times with Yasser Arafat, who you have praised. You have told (Moammar) Gadhafi that you share the view and applaud him on his record of human rights and his drive for freedom and peace around the world, and you have praised Fidel Castro as a leader of human rights, and said that Cuba was one of the countries that's head and shoulders above all other countries in human rights, despite the fact that documents at the United Nations and elsewhere show that Cuba is one of the worst. I was just wondering, are these your models of leaders of human rights, and if so, would you want a Gadhafi or an Arafat or a Castro to be the future president of South Africa?

MANDELA: One of the mistakes which some political analysts makes is to think that their enemies should be our enemies. That we can and we will never do. We have our own struggle, which we are conducting. We are grateful to the world for supporting our struggle, but nevertheless, we are an independent organization with its own policy, and the attitude of every country towards _ our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Yasser Arafat, Col. Gadhafi, Fidel Castro support our struggle to the hilt. There is no reason whatsoever why we should have any hesitation about hailing their commitment to human rights as they are being demanded in South Africa. Our attitude is based solely on the fact that they fully support the anti-apartheid struggle. They do not support it only in rhetoric. They are placing resources at our disposal, for us to win the struggle. That is the position.

KOPPEL: Mr. Mandela, as I mentioned to you before the program, we also have some distinguished guests sitting behind us, one of whom, Mr. Henry Siegman, together with two other Jewish leaders, came to Geneva to visit with you precisely because they were so concerned not only by the kind of thing that you just said .

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. with regard to Yasser Arafat, with regard to Libya's Col. Gadhafi, but also because of the support that you seem at different times to give to the (Palestine Liberation Organization).

I would like to ask Mr. Siegman to stand now for a moment and pose whatever question he would like directly to you.

HENRY SIEGMAN, Executive Director, American Jewish Congress: Before I pose my question, permit me to say first that when I had the pleasure and honor of meeting with Mr. Mandela in Geneva, we said to him _ and I would like to repeat this now, in order to put my question in context _ that the commitment of the Jewish organizations that met with him to the struggle against apartheid, against racism, against injustices in South Africa is absolutely unconditional. It is not dependent on whether we are happy or unhappy with responses that Mr. Mandela gives to some questions.

Having said that, I think I would be dishonest if I did not express profound disappointment with the answer that Mr. Mandela gave to the previous question, because it suggests a certain degree of amorality that suggests that the _ that what these people do in their own countries, what a Gadhafi does in Libya, what a Castro does in Cuba, is totally irrelevant even in terms of the issue of human rights, as long as they support the cause of the ANC. I hope that is not what Mr. Mandela meant, and I would hope that he would clarify that issue further.

MANDELA: Firstly, we are a liberation movement which is fully involved in a struggle to emancipate our people from one of the worst racial tyrannies the world has seen. We have no time to be looking into the internal affairs of other countries. It is unreasonable for anybody to think that this is our role. I have been asked by somebody, wants me to express an opinion on the differences that are taking place within the U.S.A., and he has made his position quite clear that there is racialism in this country. I have refused to be drawn into that. Why should Mr. Siegman accept my refusal to be drawn into the internal affairs of the United States and, at the same time, want me to be involved in the internal affairs of Libya and Cuba? I refuse to do that.

As far as Yasser Arafat is concerned, I explained to Mr. Siegman that we identify with the PLO because, just like ourselves, they are fighting for the right of self-determination. I went further, however, to say that the support for Yasser Arafat in his struggle does not mean that the ANC has ever doubted the right of Israel to exist as a state, legally. We have stood quite openly and firmly for the right of that state to exist within secure borders. But, of course, as I said to Mr. Siegman in Geneva, and others, that we carefully define what we mean by secure borders. We do not mean that Israel has the right to retain the territories they conquered from the Arab world, like the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. We don't agree with that. Those territories should be returned to the Arab people.

I also explained to Mr. Siegman and company that in our organization, we have Jews. In fact, Mr. Gadhafi did not allow us to open our offices in Libya precisely because we had the courage to say to him, "We work with Jews in our organization," and he didn't allow us to open an office until February this year, when he had to accept us as we are. We are not prepared to be dissuaded by anybody. We have an independent policy which we assert, and no matter with whom we discuss.

MALCOLM DUNN: Welcome. My name is Malcolm Dunn, and I'm from Plainfield, New Jersey, and I'm chairman of the United Minority Business Braintrust of New Jersey and the national chairman of the American Legal Defense Fund for the minority business organizations. I have a question that relates to our participation in business in this country. We who have gained the moxie and who have reached certain levels of proficiency in business and education and various professions would like to know what we can offer. What can we who have been denied access, total absorption into the American system in those professions, what can we prepare ourselves to offer to you in the motherland, given your attainment of the one person, one vote? I ask this in the context of Eastern European countries being free and the money that was formerly sent to Africa is now being diverted to those Eastern European countries. I ask also in the context

that our country has opened up its doors to people of a lighter hue before they have absorbed us fully in this country. . .

MANDELA: The black people of America, of the U.S.A. have a lot to offer the people of South Africa in the course of their struggle. Whatever disabilities you have in this country, at least you have been exposed to opportunities which we don't have. You have better educational facilities. There is no legal color bar in this country. And therefore, you have been able to acquire, in spite of your problems, you have been able to acquire expert knowledge, skills, which we require especially when, during the post-apartheid South Africa. You can help us a great deal by making that expertise available to us . . .

KOPPEL: If you were very political, you might have been more concerned about not alienating some people in this country who have it within their hands, within their power, either to continue sanctions against South Africa or to raise those sanctions _ to lift them. Why were you not a little more political? Perhaps we're too accustomed to politicians in this country.

MANDELA: I do not understand what you mean. Perhaps if you clarify what you are referring to.

KOPPEL: What I'm saying is that in this country, for example, there has been for many years a close alliance between the Jewish population and the black population in the civil rights struggle. There is likely to be a rather negative reaction to some of the things that you have said. That reaction could very well cause people to call up their congressmen, their senators, and say, "Oh, go ahead. Lift the sanctions." Why not? After all, President de Klerk is doing a great deal against apartheid.

MANDELA: One of the problems we are facing in the world today are people who do not look at problems objectively, but from the point of view of their own interests. That makes things difficult, because once a person is not objective, it is extremely difficult to reach an agreement. One of the best examples of this is to think that because Arafat is conducting a struggle against the state of Israel, that we must therefore condemn him. We can't do that. It is just not possible for any organization of individuals _ of integrity _ to do anything of the sort.

KOPPEL: If I might just intervene with one point. I don't want to leave the impression that this is only going to be a Jewish-black issue. There are a great many Cuban-Americans in this country who will be just as offended by some of the comments you made about Fidel Castro and Cuba.

MANDELA: No, Mr. Koppel, I don't agree with you. I am saying that it will be a grave mistake for us to consider our attitude toward Yasser Arafat on the basis of the interests of the Jewish community. We sympathize with the struggles of the Jewish people, and their persecution, right down the years. In fact, we have been very much influenced by the lack of racialism amongst the Jewish communities.

In our own country, in the political trials that have taken place, when few lawyers were prepared to defend us, it has been the Jewish lawyers who have come forward to defend us. I myself was articled _ I'm a lawyer by profession, and I was trained to become a lawyer _ by a Jewish firm at a time when few firms in our country were prepared to take blacks. And as I have said, we have many Jews _ members of the Jewish community _ in our struggle, and they have occupied very top positions.

But that does not mean to say that the enemies of Israel are our enemies. We refuse to take that position. You can call it impolitical or a moral question, but for anybody who changes his principles depending on whom he is dealing (with), that is not a man who can lead a nation.

Apparently, Mr. Koppel, you have not listened to my argument. If you have done so, then you have not been serious in examining it. I have replied to one of our friends here that I have refused to be drawn into the differences that exist between various communities inside the U.S.A. You have not commented that I am going to offend anybody by refusing to involve myself in the internal affairs of the U.S.A. Why are you so keen that I should involve myself in the internal affairs of Cuba and Libya?

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