Frank Gaffney, Obama Truther
Neoconservative pundit Frank Gaffney, former deputy assistant secretary of Defense, has bid adieu to polite society with this column on "the Jihadist vote."
Another question yet to be resolved is whether Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen of the United States, a prerequisite pursuant to the U.S. Constitution. There is evidence Mr. Obama was born in Kenya rather than, as he claims, Hawaii.
What evidence? We have a newspaper announcement of Obama's birth in Hawai'i from 1961, and we have a Hawai'ian certificate of live birth. Obama did have Kenyan citizenship until he turned 21; as the son of Barack Obama, Sr, it was automatic. And it did not negate his American citizenship.
There is also a registration document for a school in Indonesia where the would-be president studied for four years, on which he was identified not only as a Muslim but as an Indonesian.
Here's the document. It does identify Obama as a Muslim and identifies Indonesia as his "nation of citizenship," but that's what his parents wrote down on their seven-year old son's school form. If Gaffney thinks this negates Obama's American citizenship, he doesn't understand the law.
If correct, the latter could give rise to another potential problem with respect to his eligibility to be president.
Completely false. The document lists Honolulu as Obama's "place and date of birth."
Curiously, Mr. Obama has, to date, failed to provide an authentic birth certificate which could clear up the matter.
False. I'll link it again. Unless Gaffney believes that the state of Hawai'i is forging documents for Obama, this is proof that he was born in Honolulu.
This is fever swamp, Vince Foster-was-murdered, Bush-blew-up-the-WTC stuff. Gaffney should be ashamed of himself for letting it go out under his name. Or perhaps he's auditioning for a slot on David Icke's next tour. There's more in Gaffney's column but none of it's going to get attention as long as he hitches his wagon to conspiracy theories. Maybe he'll get a slot on Hannity's America, but that's it.
UPDATE: Later in the column Gaffney cites Pennsylvania attorney Philip Berg, who's filed a frivolous lawsuit against Obama on this citizenship conspiracy theory. That would be this Philip Berg.
Now, it is time for world leaders to take the lesson learned from Iraq and issue a warrant for the arrest of George W. Bush and Richard Cheney; arrest them; take them to a neutral country; try them for the murder of over 2,800 people from more than 80 countries on 9/11/01 and, when found guilty, sentence them appropriately. Jurisdiction would be proper in any of the more than 80 countries whose citizens were murdered on 9/11.
I compared Gaffney's nonsense to 9/11 trutherism for a reason.
UPDATE II: This is pathetic: a Toledo station runs a "local hero"-type story on Berg, which puts legal documents from Hawai'i on equal footing with his fact-free claims. It's mind-boggling. On the one hand you have a government certificate that says Obama was born at 7:24 p.m. on 8/4/61 in Honolulu. On the other you have Berg's claim, from his lawsuit:
Obama’s grandmother on his father’s side, his half-brother and half-sister all claim Obama was born not in Hawaii but in Kenya. Reports reflect that Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya during her pregnancy; however, she was prevented from boarding a flight from Kenya to Hawaii at her late stage of pregnancy (which, apparently, was a normal restriction, to avoid births during a flight).
Notice the distinct lack of quotes and sources? It's because the "Obama's African family members claim he was born in Kenya" story is an internet myth. They have never claimed that. There is no such story. Go ahead and try to find it.
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Conspiracy nuts are the libertarian base. Who's really behind the nationalization of the banks?
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Um, not to sound like a kook or anything, but, where is the raised seal? Never seen a birth certificate without one.
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Honolulu is his date of birth?
Besides, Ohio isn't really a state and the Libertarian Party won Texas.
Oh. Wait. -
That's a copy, CS, it doesn't need to be stamped.
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We don't have Obama's Certificate of Live Birth, we have Obama's "Certification of Live Birth". They aren't the same thing. Certification doesn't prove Obama's natural-born citizenship status, Certificate does. As of now, no one has seen Obama's Hawaii birth certificate, but Berg have reportedly secured Obama's Certified Kenyan Original Birth Certificate(One of three copies in the US) and will present this as evidence in court.
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My BC doesn't have a raised seal.
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Deadmeat - And I have Berg's medical records from his sex change operation. Seriously, did you not see the part of the post about him suing Bush for causing 9/11? He's a crazy person. He's got nothing.
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We don't have Obama's Certificate of Live Birth, we have Obama's "Certification of Live Birth".
Ok, I'll bite. So you are suggesting that the state of Hawai'i has two different official documents, one called a "Certificate of Live Birth" and another called a "Certification of Live Birth."
D'ya think maybe it's more likely that this particular state calls their birth certificate a "Certification of Live Birth?"
Maybe? -
D'ya think maybe it's more likely that this particular state calls their birth certificate a "Certification of Live Birth?"
There is a difference between the slip of paper Obama's parents got in 1961 and the paper Hawai'i issues today. But there's no legal difference. To believe the Obama citizenship conspiracy you have to believe a state is forging documents to elect Obama. -
Get ready for four years of this. Personally, I think its a waste of mental space.
We're going to be needing our resources to focus on what's wrong with Obama's policies, not worrying about what the right wing fever swamp is saying.
They are certainly not going to care what any libertarian thinks. -
Just got out my City of New York official birth certificate, which I assure you is authentic (unless I'm part of the conspiracy!)
It is titled "Certification of Birth."
There is no raised seal. -
So if you have a certificate of live birth from a state in the United States, which says you were born in the United States, are you not automatically a citizen?
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Oh, and WC? I walk past the Travis County Courthouse almost every day here in Austin, Texas. I feel a deeply intense desire to spit on its steps.
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I don't believe in 9/11 trutherism, I have no reason to doubt Obama's citizenship,I think Vince Foster's death scene was tampered with, and either pro or anti Castro Cubans, the Mafia or elements of the CIA were responsible for the JFK assassination even if LHOswald was the man who fired the fatal shot.I don't care if you think this makes me a conspiracy theorist because:
The US Government just nationalized International and domestic banking !!!!!!
Can't say I ever didn't want to watch the collapse of Western Civilization. -
By the way, has LoneWacko/Orange Line Special/24Ahead produced an official copy of his birth certificate for public inspection? I heard a rumour that he was born in a Pueblo outside of Guadalajara and smuggled across the border at age 3.
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Lefiti=Edward
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former deputy secretary of Defense,
As a point of pedantry, he was a Deputy *Assistant* Secretary of Defense. (and an Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense for a time.)
"Deputy Secretary of Defense" is the number 2 guy at the Pentagon. Dep Asst is generally three levels deeper (SecDef -> DepSecDef -> UnderSecDef(Policy)-> AsstSecDef (Intl Sec Policy/Affairs) -> DepAsstSecDef (Nuc Forces and Armed Control Policy)
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, during the Reagan administration Gafney was also appointed to the AsstSecDef for International Security Affairs (his boss Richard Perle's job), and acted in that position for several months, but was ultimately rejected by the Senate. So apparently several people have thought he's been a little too nutty for a long time. -
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Just got out my City of New York official birth certificate, which I assure you is authentic (unless I'm part of the conspiracy!)
It is titled "Certification of Birth."
There is no raised seal.
My City of Houston one is titled "Certificate of Birth", so, as if we needed it, we now have confirmation that various governments call their birth certificates different things. -
Kolohe - you know way too much about the Pentagon. You need to spend some time in the "trenches", my friend :D
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Neoconservative pundit Frank Gaffney, former deputy secretary of Defense, has bid adieu to polite society...
I dispute the notion that Gaffney has ever been a part of polite society. -
The newspaper announcement could have been planted by the grandparents, who wanted it in case of a divorce.
"We" don't have anything. FactCheck has some pictures they took. And, they removed the camera-added data from those pictures after posting them. (I know, I downloaded one of the before and one of the after). And, that camera-added data was fishy to begin with; there are reasonable explanations for that, but one would think they'd know how to set the date on their camera.
Regarding the photos, even the spokeswoman for the state of HI couldn't definitively say they weren't doctored. And, in any case, photos like that aren't definitive proof. Take those into a court of law and see what happens.
Moreover, the suit isn't just over HI. It's over BHO losing his citizenship later and never taking steps to get it back.
Look, I already posted that this only has a 5% chance of being true. And, I already warned people against spending too much time on this.
However, since then I took a look at the response in the docket (at or near the end). Go there and download the PDF and take a look at it. If you were running for president and there were this cloud, wouldn't you resolve the matter by being open?
Almost nothing in that response is something that BHO should have a problem with providing. In fact, one of the "fact checks" assumed that everything's OK because he's supposedly already provided it to others. Why won't he provide it in this case?
BHO wants to be president of the U.S. Why won't he release his application to colleges? It's obvious that either a) he's trying to waste peoples' time, or b) he's trying to hide something. I think it's the latter, and I think he's really scared of what will come out.
But, once again, I urge everyone not to count on this and not to spend time on it. Let Berg do his thing and see what happens.
But, don't pretend that this matter is settled or that BHO isn't trying to hide something. -
Let me qualify my statement by saying that I don't buy into any of this crap about Obama's ineligibility to run for President. If there were even slightly credible evidence, the FEC would have to report it, FOX News if nobody else would be all over it, and Obama would've been finished back in the primaries.
That having been said, if anyone could produce a faker looking birth certificate (or whatever it's called), then I would be shocked. I suppose I could quarter the image's size and reduce the JPEG quality so you can barely read it, but barring that, I am utterly astonished. The whole thing looks like it was thrown together in Photoshop, and the only characteristic indicating it might not be a digital original, that backwards stamped date, is in the middle of a very strange empty field.
I'M NOT SAYING IT'S FAKE. But I know that if I scanned my birth certificate, it would like I PHYSICALLY SCANNED A PIECE OF PAPER: it would be crooked, there would be scan lines or variation of background color, there would be little hairs and fuzz on the scanner bed, and there would be a level of crispness to the ink that this image lacks. Maybe it's just the small resolution of the image, or maybe the State of Hawaii tinkers with the scanned images to make them look like this. I don't know.
What I do know is that if I wanted to answer this question beyond all reasonable doubt, then I would've done a hell of a better job.
Uncharacteristically shoddy work from the Obama campaign. -
I still can't get over the fact that some people say he's a Muslin, like this troglodyte up the road from me. I had suspected this, knowing that some people already conflated "Muslin" with "Muslim."
So we made this sign for your consumption. -
Why can't folks just tell the truth? All you really have to say is, "He ain't white and he ain't christian and we don't want the boy to be president. Next thing you know, the niggers and the Ay-rabs and the metsicans will be runnin the whole goddamed country with their welfare and plantin their IUDs blowin shit up."
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Tom W,
sir, a sign like that will tear at the very fabric of society. -
Read all about Obama's SECRET PLAN for a Black Socialist America! None dare call it conspiracy! Stop him before it's too late!!
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kbolino,
That is not a scanned document. Those hatch marks in the background? make it really hard to scan a piece of paper. It is an electronic copy of a certificate of live birth issued by the State of Hawaii.
Everyone knows Obama's original birth certificate was destroyed when his mother suicide-bombed a church in Lubbock, TX. -
Brotherben, it's time we had that open-thread discussion on the fabric of Obama's faith.
But remember any such discussion will be laced with blanket statements. -
Articles like this sure bring out the crazies.
I wonder if that makes me one of the crazies.
After all, I was brought out by it.
To point out that it brought out the crazies.
Time for bed. Yup. -
Kolohe - you know way too much about the Pentagon. You need to spend some time in the "trenches", my friend :D
Like Joker's CO said, as it happens, my present duties keep me where I belong: in the rear with the gear. -
I read Gaffney's piece and I'm at a loss to try and figure out what this paragraph is stating (It seems as if there are some words missing after the address for the link):
"As I pointed out in a debate on Tuesday (for a transcript, go to http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1447/pub_detail.asp) with a man associated with both organizations and arguably the Bush administration's senior Muslim official, Suhail Khan, the Brotherhood is an instrument the Islamists have been using to foster a Fifth Column in America. Its stated purpose in this country is to "destroy Western civilization from within."
First, I didn't realize that there is an official "Bush administration senior Muslim official".
Second, the point he's trying to make seems to be that Obama is associating with a shady person. Yet he concedes that this person (and, again, there are some words missing) also has ties to the Bush administration. -
Like Nappy said:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
That is why the O'Bama campaign is letting this thing fester. It's driving the GOP's (increasingly desperate) faithful around the bend, and making them look like the crazed haters that they are...to fully 85% of the electorate. What's not to like? -
Any child of a US citizen is a natural-born US citizen if their parent was a citizen when they were born. This is a red herring, whether it's Obama, McCain, or any of the tens of thousands of American born overseas every year.
-jcr -
It's over BHO losing his citizenship later and never taking steps to get it back.
Unless he repudiated his citizenship, he never lost it, and there's no evidence at all that he did so. Obtaining Indonesian citizenship doesn't mean that he gave up his American citizenship.
-jcr -
That having been said, if anyone could produce a faker looking birth certificate
I can tell you that my birth certificate is a completely unimpressive piece of paper. Any modern PC could easily make something that looks the same. Or something that looks much better. A hand drawn and mimeographed fake could look better. -
Ya know, I think this whole story is garbage, but just to be fair ...
There is a legitimate point to be made about the fact that Obama spent most of just childhood outside the US. The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to the nation.
The whole point of the "born in US" clause is not just to insert a technicality for the sake of disqualifying people, but to ensure that any President has a direct emotional commitment to the country, from having been born and raised there.
Obama keeps going on about how wrong it is for anyone to question his patriotism. He's using the same line that anti-war activists use when they take umbrage at anyone suggesting that they kinda want the US to lose. But in his case, it's worse, because there's a lot more legitimate reason to wonder if a guy who spent his formative years in Indonesia really gives a damn about the welfare of people in Pensylvania.
Moreover, with Obama basically campaigning globally, it looks a lot like he really does care about the welfare and opinions of people in other countries more than he ought to.
It's a bit like we're in that late Empire period when the Ceasars started getting selected from people that were born in in Spain or North Africa instead of in Italy. -
Articles like this sure bring out the crazies.
I wonder if that makes me one of the crazies.
After all, I was brought out by it.
To point out that it brought out the crazies.
Time for bed. Yup.
I'd love to see the crazies be forced to try and explain how Obama can be a radical Muslim, but also be a liberal socialist who supports abortion and gay marriage at the same time. Well, I suppose he could be a Muslim and a socialist, but a real fundamentalist radical Muslim would want abortionists and gays killed, wouldn't he?
Oh, and Orange Line Special, your idol Palin doesn't want to entirely fence off the border, either, and you already know all about "Juan McAmnesty". I guess that puts you in a pickle over who to vote for, doesn't it? What's a paranoid, single-issue nativist to do? -
Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, here's a dumb sign that some loser in Missouri made.
http://pics.livejournal.com/pjoseph/pic/000016k5/s320x240 -
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Vince Foster was murdered. I think Ron Brown was. Weigs needs to stop being so naive even though he came of age very suddenly as the Towers were falling.
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Republicans had best not go-there. The US military base had no hospital at the time of McCain's birth, which therefore probably happened in a Panamanian hospital in the Panamanian city of Colon, which isn't a part of the USA because it's just outside the Canal Zone. It's as bogus as the other argument about Obama if you take into account original intent, etc., but technicalities can come back to bite a campaign that looks for them.
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That's it. If *either* the Dem or the Repub win this election I am leaving the country!
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So, Frank Gaffney says Obama's not an American, so that leaves me to vote for McCain.
And you know where he was born? Panama.
Bob Barr is from Georgia, but as I understand it, that is now a part of Russia.
Can't we get any goddamned Americans running for president, or do we have to outsource every job to these foreigners? -
Funny you should mention "Vince Foster was Murdered" stuff.
The Moonie Times ran that story over and over, too.
What a repellent human being, and what a repellent organization. -
Frank Gaffney, former deputy assistant
I don't know who's more desperate: Gaffney or Weigel. Relax, David. The former deputy assistant is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and everyone seems to know it but you. -
Excellent Abdul. After all of these disqualifications for non-citizenship are announced we are in for the biggest October surprise ever:
Alan Keyes is the only candidate eligible on the ballot.
But even if he was the only candidate on the ballot he would still lose by 30 points. -
I think there are a number of people, Frank Gaffney being one of them, who have simply assumed all along that a black guy with a Muslim name is going to inevitably lose this election. No matter what the polls say, no matter what's going on in the news, they maintained their faith in the basic indecency of the American people.
And now it's dawning on them that it isn't true, and they're freaking the hell out. -
I'm more concerned with the legitimate reasons Obama shouldn't be president, like his ultra-liberal tendencies to tax, spend, meddle and ignore individual rights in favor of special interest promotion using the muscle of the state. Of course that's based on my conspiracy theory that the Democrat's have cooked up a secret plan to institute social engineering in order to establish equality and justice. I know someone who has been in one of their secret meetings -- they gave him bumper stickers and stuff.
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Washington's Northern Virginia suburbs - the heart of what has been dubbed the "Wahhabi Corridor"
The hell? Where do these people get this stuff? -
they maintained their faith in the basic indecency of the American people
Indeed, one of the few positive aspects of this interminable election is how race didn't play a major role. When no one was looking the nation seems to have gotten past all that, making professionals like Sharpton and Jackson obsolete almost overnight. -
http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=3324
The above link proves Bush knew about 911, I mean it proves Obama was born in Kneya. I found the link here:
http://www.niggermania.net/forum/nigger-barack-hussein-obama/
Can there be any doubt? Racism is way funnier than rape. -
"Gaffney should be ashamed of himself for letting it go out under his name."
Shame is an emotion Frank hasn't had in a long time, if ever. Back when I was a young junior analyst working for a beltway bandit, I toiled on a weekly news clip service for a Navy customer. Frank's column in the Washington Times was an endless source of amusement. With the Russians in the scrapheap, he was obsessed with building up China into a murderous, imminent threat to U.S. security in order to justify continued Cold War levels of defense spending. Even the retired military guys in our office thought he was crazy. -
Since Obama has been overseas numerous times, I presume he has a US Passport so his birth certificate was vetted by the US State Dept. - who've probably seen than a few 1961 Hawaii issued BC's. Case closed.
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more than
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Geez, does that mean that the "birth certificate" that the State of Hawaii sent me in 2001 is not valid either? It looks just like Obama's. Oh, well, I never wanted to be president anyway.
Sounds to me like an awful lot of people have not applied for a birth certificate in the last 10 or 20 years.
Ah, ignorance. The best foundation to build a conspiracy theory on. -
Isaac Bartram,
BTW, I believe in witches too. Was married for 10 years and all . . . -
At least David Icke's theories are plausible.
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I blame the Bildeburghers,Rothchilds, Illumnati, er, you know, the guys who do all this stuff.
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Well, ed, it's certainly not for lack of trying.
That's what makes it so sweet. -
The impending ass kicking at the polls has apparently driven some GOP fanboys over the edge.
And I thought that libertarians had cornered the nutcase market. -
The whole point of the "born in US" clause is not just to insert a technicality for the sake of disqualifying people, but to ensure that any President has a direct emotional commitment to the country, from having been born and raised there.
Actually, no. The qualification that's about the emotional connection to the US is the third qualification for president, "been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States". Shit, it's amazing how little people know about the qualifications for president.
The irony of this whole thing is that if there's one person that's an ex post facto "natural born citizen", it's John McCain. You can bet if BHO was the one born in Panama before people born in Panama were considered natural born citizens, the conservashpere would be in flames and there would be a case in front of the Supreme Court before the election. -
And I thought that libertarians had cornered the nutcase market.
Note to self: colloidial silver treatment sales are about to go through the roof! -
Why can't people just be honest about why they don't want Obama to be president, whatever those reasons may be?
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I blame the Kochtopus.
For everything. -
Hawaii's not American enough?
But Alaska is, eh, Hazel? -
Hawaii's not American enough?
But Alaska is, eh, Hazel?
Everyone knows if it wasn't for those damn Hawaiians, we'd never have gotten involved in WWII. Splitters. -
Wasn't John McCain born in the Panama Canal Zone?
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I suspect Barack Obama is racking up the "fanboy" vote a lot more than the GOP ever will. Those fanboys just luurrrrve them some leftist ass smacking Daddy-Obama. Weigel's Daddy's favorite, I've heard.
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Hawaii's not American enough?
Some of my best friends are pineapples. -
unsweetness, that reminded me of the "man marries pineapple" story someone linked to the other day. hehehe
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This is all just prologue to 4 years of baseless accusations that Obama stole the election and another case of the projection the conservatives do so insanely. Bush actually steals the election in 2000 even though he loses the popular vote by 500,000 and now Obama steals the election even though he wins in a landslide.
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That's was me. You got something against pineapples? Go to the ananas comosus side of town after dark and talk that shit. You wouldn't last five minutes.
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My original Monroe County (NY) birth certificate is called a "birth certificate". When I need a copy they issue me a "certification". Both are stamped, FWIW...
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"Why can't people just be honest about why they don't want Obama to be president, whatever those reasons may be?"
Most of the time they are, and they list things like his leftist extremism, his desire to spread the wealth around, his false promise of a tax cut for 95% of Americans, his desire for even bigger government spending than George Bush has given us, his socialist health care plan, his willingness to be a member of an America hating church for twenty years, his suspicious ties to Acorn, his suspicious ties to Ayres, Odinga, Rezko, the corrupt Chicago political machine, etc.
But they get called racist anyway, which is what I suspect you were driving at. -
"Bush actually steals the election in 2000 "
Still whining about that, huh? Pot meet kettle. -
The most interesting part of this is that Obama is a Muslim apostate, and that could be very interesting when dealing with Muslim nations.
Personally, I see that as a reason to vote for him. One more way to screw with medieval fcktards. -
Look, I don't care what species a fruit is. Why is everybody but me so obesessed with the color and texture of a fruit's skin?
I'm just talking about culture. That nasty, corrupt pineapple culture. That's where you find The Real Fruitists. -
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Vince Foster was murdered. I think Ron Brown was. Weigs needs to stop being so naive even though he came of age very suddenly as the Towers were falling.
Yep. It's all part of the HFCS/Freemason thing. The proof is [redacted by Homeland Secrity]. -
*gasp* Dave Weigel is part of the conspiracy too! Run for the hills, boy!
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That's it. If *either* the Dem or the Repub win this election I am leaving the country!
To which nation do we semd condolences? -
I don't care what you fruitists say: A Tribe Called Bromeliaceae put out some damn fine albums.
But, I do admit that the fruit community's dismissal of education as too vegetable is troubling. -
Democrat poll worker jumps on the back of a 75 year old McCain poll worker and beats him in the head
Good god, even made up stuff doesn't get better than this. -
Bush actually steals the election in 2000 even though he loses the popular vote by 500,000 and now Obama steals the election even though he wins in a landslide.
Two points.
Bush won the 2000 election.
It's been almost 8 fucking years. Quit your whinging, you bore people. -
That story is a perfect blend of funny and sad. Now, if we can only count on every fraudulent ballot resulting in a fistfight between the elderly, I imagine none of them would make it through.
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Get a load of this hilarious video for morons about Sarah Palin...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRoiVWfLyU&eurl=http://www.johnmccain.com/about/governorpalin.htm?s=google&t=proven&r=palin
Notice the comments at the bottom...all positive and all made about a month ago!!! LOL -
"The hell? Where do these people get this stuff?"
I saw it documented on The Internet at 8:27 AM. -
John C. Randolph | October 15, 2008, 2:59am | #
Any child of a US citizen is a natural-born US citizen if their parent was a citizen when they were born. This is a red herring, whether it's Obama, McCain, or any of the tens of thousands of American born overseas every year.
-jcr
Not true. You have to be born on (some type of) American soil to be natural-born. As someone suggested, this is probably the reason McCain is not pressing the issue.
And Vince Foster was m0rdered. -
I saw it documented on The Internet at 8:27 AM.
Oh yeah, Virgil? Got a link? -
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Hazel Meade blathers: "There is a legitimate point to be made about the fact that Obama spent most of just childhood outside the US. The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to the nation."
Congrats, Hazel, you failed to make a legitimate point.
I am consistently impressed with the level of stupid attained by the conspiracy theorists in their insane pursuits. -
The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to the nation.
Slim just narrowed;y beat me. Hawaii's been a goddamn state all of Obama's life. And the whole Dec 7 thing doesn't reflect a two-way 'emotional commitment?'
t's a bit like we're in that late Empire period when the Ceasars started getting selected from people that were born in in Spain or North Africa instead of in Italy.
By this logic, all presidents should have been born in the original 13 colonies, and all those Ohio prez's are illegitimate. (to say nothing of the Texas, Nebraska, California ones) -
The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to the nation.
WOW. Not only are you questioning Barack's commitment to the nation, you are questioning every Hawaiian's as well! Impressive... you fucking bigot. -
Well, as I said, I do think the whole issue is sorta crap.
I just think there is a legitimate point burried there. This guys earliest memories of childhood are from Indonesia. He didn't return to Hawaii until he was 10.
I moved when I was 11 and still consider the place where I was under 11 as the place were I am "from originally". That's home to me, and I suspect that Indonesia is more than just a place on the map to Obama. It's his childhood home. Hawaii is not even his mother's home, it's were he was sent to live with his grandparents. That makes it less home.
And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at least you can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you interact with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii, where people have to fly there.
You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48 contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of Americans.
It explains a bit about his cultural snobbery in his "clinging to guns and religion" remark. As well as the perception of elitism. people get that there's something "removed" about him, and it may well be that they are picking up on his being raised significantly in a foreign country. -
A thread like this is really just no fun without Chris "Lone Bedwetter" Kelly chiming in. I wonder where he is: did the MexicanGovernment SecretService finally SilenceHim?
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As well as the perception of elitism. people get that there's something "removed" about him, and it may well be that they are picking up on his being raised significantly in a foreign country.
According to the polls, particularly the internals, "people" don't "get" this at all. -
I defy anyone to find a statement about people from small towns in red states comparable to what Hazel is arguing.
But Sarah Palin is just being picked on. -
You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48 contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of Americans.
Speaking of fucking obtuse, how bout the ability of a person who spends their entire life in Bismark, ND or Flushing, NY to relate to the majority of americans? How representantive are they? They're more different from each other than each is from a resident of Kaneohe.
Between the tourism and the military, a resident of Hawaii meets a lot more different types of americans than the average mid-american joe blow,Cokie RobertsMs. Meade. -
And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at least you can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you interact with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii, where people have to fly there.
You can't drive to Juneau unless you put your car on a boat. -
When you live in the continental US, you interact with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii, where people have to fly there.
Last I checked, there are an assload of people from the other 48 states that go to Hawaii. They're usually in the form of tourists and conventioneers. However, a lot more people from the continental 48 states go to Hawaii than go to Alaska. Hawaiians play American sports, like football. Alaskans play Canadian/Soviet sports, like hockey. -
"Democrat poll worker jumps on the back of a 75 year old McCain poll worker and beats him in the head"
To be fair, the Democrat was a 73 year old woman. -
"And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at least you can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you interact with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii, where people have to fly there."
Aren't you just a little bit embarrassed about typing out something this ridiculously dumb?
If not, let me suggest that you reconsider. -
"There is a legitimate point to be made about the fact that Obama spent most of just childhood outside the US. The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to the nation. "
Emotional commitment? So where does that leave people who are born and raised in the Confederate states?
"You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48 contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of Americans."
You have to be pretty obtuse to assert that someone from Hawaii is somehow less able to relate to the majority of Americans that some blowjob-queen cheerleader from a welfare queen non-lower 48 state like Alaska. You can drive to Alaska, through a furrin country, but the point is that no one with any sense does go to Alaska unless they have to, unlike Hawaii. -
If Obama was born in Kenya, wouldn't there be evidence that his mom was IN Kenya at the time of birth?
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Not conspiracy nuts! CITIZEN JOURNALISTS!!!
Remember the cardinal rule of CITIZEN JOURNALISTS!!: when it implies something that goes against the party line, it "smells fishy." It would be irresponsible not to speculate! -
Would one of you originalists out there please tell me which of the first 20 or so guys to be elected president had to come up with a Certificate (or Certification) of Live Birth to qualify for the office? If Washington (or Martin Van Buren, the first President [reputedly] born after July 4, 1776, when there was a United States to be a natural-born citizen of) didn't need a scrap of paper issued by a government to prove his eligibility, why should Obama or McCain?
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Note that I have not at all commented on Palin. But you're all papering right over the fact that even if Obama did spend his later childhood in Hawaii, the other half was in Indonesia. No comments on that point, I see.
There's a lot more internal travel within the 48 states than there is between the 48 and Hawaii. And the travel isn't all concentrated on tourism.
Meeting lot of tourists gives one about the same exposure to US culture as someone from Mexico, or a Carribean Island, or any other place American tourists go. Not at all equivalent to living in one of the 48 states.
Lot of people before me have commented on the fact that Hawaii almost "feels like" a foreign country. This isn't anything new.
So he spent half his childhood in Indonesia, and then was sent away to live with his (racist) grandma in Hawaii. He didn't really get to spend a lot of time travelling around the major 48 states until he turned 18 and went away to college. -
Jim-
I've seen that birth certificate before. In fact, now that it's been linked to TWICE, I know it must be real! -
Um, people? McCain was born in Panama. His dad was in the navy, remember?
Being born anywhere in the world to an American parent makes you a "natural-born American citizen".
So even if he WAS born in Kenya, who cares? Again, McCain was born in Panama. Can we move on now? -
At Factcheck, the people who examined the certificate were "Factcheck staffers." They lack
the authority to certify it as they are not document experts. Even if certified, absolute
proof of birth requires witness signatures and hospital records.
At the end factcheck says the document is sufficient to prove citizenship for "all
reasonable purposes." That means it's good enough to get a job etc. Proof of eligibility
for POTUS requires a document that is better than just for "reasonable purposes."
It's just absurd that people think this is good enough for the world's most important job. -
Lot of people before me have commented on the fact that Hawaii almost "feels like" a foreign country. This isn't anything new.
At least on this thread, you're the only one one, wahine.
There's a lot more internal travel within the 48 states
I would bet money cash money there's more travel between Hi and Nv (or Hi and Ca) than between North Dakota and every other state combined.
Meeting lot of tourists gives one about the same exposure to US culture as someone from Mexico, or a Carribean Island, or any other place American tourists go. Not at all equivalent to living in one of the 48 states.
And for the last thing I'll post on this stupid topic, if you think the cultural differences between Yonkers, NY, Blacksburg, VA, Orlando, FL, Charleston, SC, Groton, CT, San Diego, CA and Macon, GA are no more extreme than the ones between each of those and Honolulu, *you* are the one that needs to see some the country. -
Kolohe: How about the cultural differences between Indonesia and Yonkers, Orlando, et. al.?
Keep in mind I'm not necessarily saying it disqualifies Obama. I'm merely saying that it's not completely unreasonable to wonder if someone who was raised partly in a very foreign place, and never spent much time in the continental US until after he turned 18, really feels a strong sense of connection to it.
To me it is an open question, and it's wrong to attack anyone who raises it, call them a bigot, or assume that they've got some kind of agenda. The Obama supporters would do better to address this honestly then to lump everyone who has those concerns in with racists and right-wing conspiracy theorists. -
Oh Hazel...unless you have a passport, you can NOT drive to Alaska these days, but you CAN fly to Hawaii without one.
The rest of your argument is just embarrassingly...well...embarassing. -
According to the law, the same one that makes my first daughter an American though born abroad, a person born to an American citizen is an American citizen. Case closed. Can we get on with the issues, now?
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OBAMA................ WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO HIDE?
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Actually, while a child born overseas is automatically a citizen if both parents are citizens, there are restrictions if only one is.
And being a citizen at birth is considered "native born."
After all there was never any question that born in Mexico George Romney was eligible to run for prez.
That said, there are requirements to register the birth and make the claim of citizenship. While there is no question that my french cousin (born to an American mother and Hungarian father) was eligible for citizenship at birth he would have a hard time claiming it now that he's over forty and his parents are dead. -
There's a simple solution to this - produce the actual long-form birth certificate (that green thing ain't it, folks) listing the vitals, hospital and attending physician.
Why have this loose end out there when all they have to do is produce an original document ( as opposed to a print-out ).....if one exists? -
It is proven that the birth certification Obama claims to be genuine is a forgery. It is a second rate attempt to look like the legitimate item. Please take the time to examine the facts before giving an opinion on this site. An objective, non-emotional study of the facts proves the certification is a fake. However, Obama may still be a US citizen. He simply has an obligation to clear up this matter by providing a true copy of his certificate of birth. Why would anyone provide a forgery that has been verified as a fake through forensic analysis, when a true copy of the document will resolve this entire issue? Where there is smoke there is usually fire....
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You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48 contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of Americans.
How about not just your pre-adult life but your whole goddamn life? Mrs. Palin only got her passport last year. John McCain may as well have nominated Puerto Rican governor Aníbal Acevedo Vilá.
An objective, non-emotional study of the facts proves the certification is a fake.
Links? -
Mark: Palin was born in Idaho.
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I'm not saying that Obama's Certification of Birth is a forgery, I'm just saying I'm not sure I believe that his mother's maiden name is "McLovin".
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And if his birth certificate weighs more than a duck, he's a . . . .
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Mark,
Check this quick tutorial out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd5gm8XKv_w
It is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. The "certification" is fake... a second rate Photoshopped forgery. But you'll probably like the accompanying music... -
That video was not very convincing. Let's see a well-researched article with expert opinion. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume he's a citizen, natural born.
Meanwhille, a quick google search on McCain's citizenship status:
NYTimes article
Actual legal opinion
WaPo: Obama Backs Law Helping McCain
